Hello and welcome to the Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast, where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't.
In this episode, we discuss her early love of computers and her college path, how she ended up dropping out and working on random office jobs, her first job in tech building computers in exchange for beers, and how management became her greatest achievement.
Leslie explains to us the importance of interviewing and how you should tailor the interview process to your needs.
We talk about why it's important to have a diverse staff, the distinction between mentoring and sponsorship, and why you should seek a couple’s therapist to improve your communication and managing skills.
The happiest times of my months are when someone doesn't think they can do something and I convince them to give it a try.
I know they can do it, and then I'm giving them the gift of letting them know that they could do that and letting them see just how much they're capable of.
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Transcript is automatically generated and may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the imposter syndrome network podcast, where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't. My name is Chris Grundman as always. I'm here with our co-host Zoe rose.
[00:00:21] Zoe: Hey!
[00:00:22] Chris: This is the Leslie Carr episode, and you are certainly in for a treat today. Leslie is head of engineering at Pando, a recovering network engineer, and a purveyor of delightfully colorful hair.
[00:00:37] Chris: Hi, Leslie, would you mind introducing yourself to the imposter syndrome network?
[00:00:42] Leslie: Hi, Chris and Zoe, it's great to be here. As you mentioned, I'm Leslie, I'm the head of engineering at Pando. I think we're a really cool company. That's working on employee growth and feedback. And I have had a lot of careers. I started my career in tech and tech support and have changed jobs a bunch of times until now I'm a head of engineering.
[00:01:04] Chris: Awesome. Let's dive in. And I think I'd like to start at the beginning. How did you get started in tech at all? Was it a passion, an opportunity, an accident? What's your technology career origin story.
[00:01:17] Leslie: Yeah, for me, it was more of an accident. So I always did love computers. I remember when I was very young, the IBM PS/2 had just come out.
[00:01:28] Leslie: It was brand new. And so, I don't know. I wanna say I was around kindergarten age or so might be off by a year or two. My parents got one state of the art had a 3.5 inch floppy drive, which was brand new, unheard of 286 process. Blazing fast. And I just loved it. Like we had our MS-DOS manual cuz they came with physical manuals back then and I read that entire, I don't know, like 300 page manual cover to cover, like why, who knows?
[00:01:59] Leslie: I was obsessed, but I didn't really see computers as a career for me. I went to public school. We didn't really have a computer science program. Finally in high school, we had one computer science course, but it was given at the same time as the second year calculus course. So there's only one of each. And so it was like, okay, well what, you know, what am I gonna choose?
[00:02:23] Leslie: No, I'm a proper nerd. I'm going for more calculus. So, yeah, so I always thought that I would be a chemical engineer. Funny thing. I didn't actually know what chemical engineers did. I just knew that if you're good at chemistry and you're good at math, that's what you should do. So, yeah, so went to Carnegie Mellon and I chose that school specifically because they let you, your very first semester start going in on your major courses, all the other schools, you had to do like an introduction to engineering course and sort of some more well-rounded courses to find out: do you really wanna be a chemical engineer or not? Well, I was so certain until I took my first chemical engineering course and I hated it. It was like all the most boring parts of chemistry. And I was like, this is, this is the worst bounced around, had a lot of different majors. Also none of them were computer science.
[00:03:11] Leslie: And honestly that was because both the computer science department was predominantly male and had this very ego driven. Like it was like all the computer science classes were like trying to fail you. And also one of the professors was really creepy and, uh, he had tenure. So when they found out they just banned him from the computer lab instead of actually doing anything.
[00:03:36] Leslie: And so very few women wanted to move into that major and plenty moved out. Right? Yeah. I wound up dropping out and just, uh, working random, shitty jobs, you know, deli, office temping, all these things. I got two jobs, which sort of put me on the path. One was just building computers in exchange for beer before I was 21.
[00:04:02] Leslie: Of course uh, until then I found out my so-called friend was actually getting a hundred dollars a computer and I was getting a six pack for every two to three computers I built.
[00:04:13] Chris: Oh, wow. Those were expensive. Uh, beers is what they were .
[00:04:17] Leslie: Yeah, seriously. They should have been like some nice imported Belgian ones.
[00:04:21] Leslie: Right? . And then I, I also got a job with the instructional technology or AV department at Carnegie Mellon. So I was working sort of tech adjacent there. And then I later got a job doing data classification, just, you know, for at least for early AI's, you would make all these data classification sets, right?
[00:04:43] Leslie: Like, Hey, if you see this on a webpage, this is a name. If you see this on a webpage, this is an address. That company was one of those great first ".com" companies, which completely folded because at the time it turns out it was far cheaper and more accurate to hire people in other countries to just pull out that data than to have a very cool, but very expensive and not that accurate AI to pull that data out.
[00:05:10] Leslie: And then I got a job in tech support. Which I was very excited about solely because it paid a dollar over minimum wage. It was a very big deal at the time. And I was in an office where I could like sit down and not be on my feet all day. And yeah. And then when I started the tech support job, I, anytime there was something I couldn't do and I had to pass it on to the sysadmins (system administrators) to do, I would bug them and ask them what they're doing if I could watch.
[00:05:38] Leslie: And can I do that next time? And of course they said, yes, cuz they were like, wait, I can do less work and pass it on to someone else. Yes. So it was really a win-win. Um, then the big recession, like after the ".com" boom and September 11th, 2001, you know, the US economy started to go into a recession. I was living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at the time.
[00:06:00] Leslie: And in the us, the recession was incredibly regional. Some areas of the us were fine and booming and some. Were not Pittsburgh had, I think it was a 20% or so unemployment rate for people in their twenties. It was, it was tough. I was downsized. I tried even getting a job at McDonald's and McDonald's was like, you don't have enough retail experience.
[00:06:25] Leslie: Like this is how tough it was to get a job. There was nothing. One of my friends convinced me to check out Washington DC. And he said, oh, there's so many jobs here. And I was like, you're lying. You're just lonely. And want someone to move out there, visit you. There's no jobs, but Nope. He was not lying. There are tons of jobs.
[00:06:43] Leslie: Turns out the federal government has lots of contractors and is a lot more recession proof than random, you know, city in the Mid-Atlantic. So I got a job with this company that was just starting to become a big thing called Google. Uh . Yeah. So very good timing. That was 2004 and I started off in their data centers, repairing machines, diagnosing them, getting them back to health, expanding the data center, installing new machines, all of that.
[00:07:14] Leslie: That's where I discovered network engineering. When I started, we were starting a new project to upgrade a lot of our network equipment. And so as part of that, the network vendors came to all the data centers and gave like a little talk about, Hey, this is how a network switch works. And. I was hooked this, this is amazing.
[00:07:33] Leslie: All of this data, like everything is going through this small box with these really specialized chips and just, wow, this is the first time I'd seen how the internet works. Like I'd sort of seen it, but this is like, I really got it. Like, this is how the internet works. And so few people know this and. I was hooked.
[00:07:54] Leslie: I moved to Atlanta with Google and my boss in Atlanta was fabulous and just called up, or I think bill emailed the head of network engineering at Google at the time, Google was still smaller back then and said, Hey, got this woman who is interested in network engineering. Like what can she do as a career path?
[00:08:14] Leslie: And I'll never forget, Kathy Chen fabulous woman. I owe so much of my career to her said, well, Got a project going on in Atlanta. How about she just tags along pitches in to help out and see how that goes. When people talk about the difference between like mentorship and sponsorship, I wanna say Kathy really exemplified that.
[00:08:37] Leslie: Right? She could have given some advice given me some books and that would've been helpful. It still would've been helpful. But instead of that, she went above and beyond and said, here's a chance to do the work. And it was great. You know, it changed my career trajectory completely by giving me that opportunity.
[00:08:55] Leslie: And I still obviously had to work hard at it. I had to make sure I was successful, but without that opportunity, who knows how long it would be or if I would've been able to break in.
[00:09:06] Chris: Yeah, definitely. And that's, you know, I, I, we don't have to go too far on this thread, but I think that in there is kind of the definition of privilege in some degrees.
[00:09:15] Chris: It doesn't negate the need for hard work or skill or experience or any of those things you have to build up over time. It's just that the door was open and you were able to walk in
[00:09:23] Leslie: Exactly.
[00:09:25] Chris: So fast forwarding. Right? I think that's an awesome story of, of kind of getting into tech and kind of, kind of falling into tech almost accidentally.
[00:09:32] Chris: And then with some purpose over time, is that picked up steam? Now, right. We're, you know, I don't know some, some number of years later and you've had this pretty illustrative career, I think, and gone through several jobs at several great companies and done some really, really cool work. I've followed you for a long time.
[00:09:47] Chris: And you know, obviously now, yeah. Now you're head of engineering somewhere. So in that run, and again, this is kind of the, the short version here, but so far what's been your greatest achievement in, in your career.
[00:10:00] Leslie: That's a tough one. Honestly, I have to say. Management has been my greatest achievement. It's one of those areas I never expected to want to do.
[00:10:10] Leslie: I always thought management was honestly a step down from engineering. You know, it's not as technical. Sure. It's great for some people, but I'm, you know, I'm a technical, smart woman. I'm too hardcore for management, but I had an amazing manager, Marco Rogers, shout out. Thank you, Marco, who showed me that true, good management is about enabling people to be their best selves at work and about supporting people in their growth and in their career journey. I also think I was lucky. Perhaps if I had Marco as a manager, when I was starting out my career, I wouldn't have been emotionally mature enough to realize how good he was at his job and how important of a job he was doing.
[00:10:55] Leslie: But I think it was just, you know, I was in the right place mentally and he was amazing. And so he showed me that being a manager is all about helping others and helping others unlock their full potential and helping to give other people opportunities that they wouldn't otherwise have. So I feel like being a manager is the ultimate paying it forward.
[00:11:18] Leslie: And honestly, the happiest times of, you know, my months are when someone. Doesn't think they can do something and I convinced them to give it a try and then they do it. Cause I knew they could do it. great. It's the best feeling like, and then like they, cause I know they can do it and then I'm giving them the gift of letting them know that they could do that and letting them see just how much they're capable of.
[00:11:44] Zoe: Yeah. I mean, I, I would agree with you. Um, I've had good managers, I've had a little bit more rubbish managers and it takes time. To realize that I've had really rubbish managers and thought it was my fault. And it took me a while to realize actually they're just rubbish. And, uh, , you know, you don't think that right away or at least I don't.
[00:12:05] Zoe: I tend to think, oh no, it's me. What I really like is your comment about, um, and we touch on this quite a few times at other episodes where it's scary to be less technical or it's scary to be less hands on mm-hmm and admitting, or allowing yourself to be more hands off and admitting. Oh, okay. Maybe I don't need to do all of the things myself.
[00:12:26] Zoe: I am curious. Actually I did want to mention, I am also a McDonald failed hire. They did not hire me either, which they're rubbish. I'm just gonna say didn't hire me either. But I will say that, um, I am interested in kind of understanding your day to day as a head of engineering. What, what does that kind of entail?
[00:12:46] Zoe: On top of that. What are some good points that people maybe, maybe they're more junior, maybe they're more, you know, intermediate in their career and kind of considerations they can have if they want to pursue a similar career path.
[00:12:58] Leslie: Mm-hmm yeah. Well, um, I wanna say, I feel like one important step to becoming a head of engineering was moving from leading just infrastructure teams to also leading product teams.
[00:13:11] Leslie: As a head of engineering, well, infrastructure is incredibly important and obviously so close to my heart. If you don't have a product that you're selling, it doesn't matter how fast the infrastructure is and how perfect and self-healing it is. So you really have to get that product sense. And for me, it was just seeing an opportunity and taking it.
[00:13:33] Leslie: Uh, we had a reorg at my previous organization. And there were openings on the product side and I decided, Hey, I might as well try leading product teams. What's the worst that'll happen. I mean, I guess failure, but, eh, that's fine. It's it's okay. Don't be afraid to fail. It's very important. And then also realizing that even though I was very experienced as an infrastructure manager and engineering leader, you know, it was a whole different ballgame.
[00:14:00] Leslie: And I had to learn from all of these people and learn a very different method of thinking. And also then I would say, if you're leading just product teams, you should also do the opposite because my infrastructure background has been so helpful when solving issues and also. Creating unity inside the company and teams like an infrastructure team, doesn't have a purpose without a product team and a product team doesn't have a product that works without an infrastructure team.
[00:14:28] Leslie: So you have to understand that both of these sides are, are so important and so important that they have a good, strong relationship and really are working together. So right now I'm the head of engineering for a really small startup. Uh we have, I believe we have 20 people now total. So when you're in that small of a company, I'm like, say I'm the head of engineering, I'm the head of recruiting.
[00:14:52] Leslie: I'm the IT intern. just, you just have to really due anything you see needs doing that you think you could even do at all? um, so yeah, so I'd say like, you know, some people say like, you're the glue between the layers or like the sealant of the cracks. So one of the most important roles I think I have is working together with the head of product planning and prioritizing.
[00:15:17] Leslie: So you have to also make sure that you're talking with your customer success team, because what your current customers want, what are their problems? You need to know that you have to be talking with the sales team. What is selling what isn't selling, what features do we need to make sure we sell?
[00:15:36] Leslie: Because sales are how you make payroll very important. And then also with the engineering team, because you have to balance out, well, what pieces of your software are causing issues right now? What are causing issues, but you can sort of smooth over well enough, you know, So there's that balance between like we're deciding, oh, we're always deciding and reprioritizing.
[00:15:59] Leslie: Are we gonna go for a new feature? Are we going to add more functionality to existing one? Or are we going to do like a complete behind the scenes refactor? And you also have to work with, uh, your founder and head of finance to pay attention to your runway and how much money you have to balance all those out.
[00:16:16] Leslie: So it's really about a balancing factor. Sometimes making everyone happy sometimes trying to figure out how to make the fewest people unhappy or, yeah, so it's a lot of communication and you know, some people say intuition, but I feel like intuition is really when you've had a lot of experiences. You've seen how things have gone well, you've seen how things have failed. You've collected all the inputs and you've then have enough experience that you can make. A good enough prediction.
[00:16:49] Zoe: So it's a, it's a hypothesis. You're making it educated guess, but you've got the education behind it. Yeah.
[00:16:56] Leslie: And it's, it's a very scientific method when you think about it that way.
[00:16:59] Leslie: Right. Because you're hypothesis and you're running an experiment and you see if it works and then. You use all that data to inform your next hypothesis.
[00:17:08] Zoe: Perfect. Yeah. I like that. Um, what you said is, you know, you are using from your history you're using from your experiences. One thing I'm curious is do you find in your, I suppose, personal life, is there experiences from hobbies or experiences from other jobs that are not related to what you're doing, that you really pulled from that help you in your career
[00:17:31] Leslie: Couples counseling.
[00:17:33] Leslie: Hands down. Number one. I, I, I swear I would not be anywhere near where I am professionally. If it hadn't been for a relationship, which wound up failing, but we went to couples counseling because couples therapy taught me about communication and communication patterns. How to be a better active listener, you know, whatever we communicate.
[00:17:55] Leslie: We're all making assumptions that someone else understands. All of our assumptions. And a lot of times they're subconscious. Like you don't even realize what assumptions you're making. And I had to learn how to surface some of those assumptions to my conscious mind so I can communicate them. So, yeah, so honestly , even if you're not in a relationship, uh, and you want to improve your management and leadership skills, seek out a couple's therapists.
[00:18:23] Leslie: Talk to them really about coaching all of your communication skills. Yeah. Hands down. Most important.
[00:18:29] Zoe: I haven't taken a couple's therapy, but I think I might, I'll just ping my husband say we're gonna take some therapy but, uh, I do, um, have experience with I've taken two unconscious biased training courses, and I agree that point you made about, you know, your assumptions and bringing it more to your conscious mind.
[00:18:47] Zoe: I don't feel like. Building relationships for me in personal, it doesn't come as natural. So I spent a lot of time analyzing why I like someone, why I don't like someone, how I interact, how if I interact and it, they don't like me. You know, why don't they, which maybe doesn't work for everybody. But I did spend a lot of many, many years understanding how people interact, reading body language, just like that.
[00:19:10] Zoe: But one thing I really liked was unconscious bias training. And I think that even just taking that has helped me figure out relationships better. But I do think I'm gonna look into couples therapy. I'm gonna confuse the heck outta my husband, but I I'm interested.
[00:19:29] Chris: sending some mixed signals there
[00:19:30] Leslie: really?
[00:19:31] Leslie: So that's one thing. I feel like a lot of people think of therapy as if something is wrong, which it is incredibly helpful. If something's wrong. One of my friends. Great metaphor for it. He said, no one thinks if you go to the gym and you hire a personal trainer that you're weak or anything's wrong. So like, why is it the same with your brain?
[00:19:50] Leslie: Sometimes you need an expert to help you give strength, your brain.
[00:19:56] Zoe: Oh, so, so, so true. I go to therapy myself and I have for many years, and I think it's highly beneficial. I also have a friend who is a therapist and I always ping her to kind of, why am I thinking this? You know, why, why is it this, this interaction not working?
[00:20:12] Zoe: And I think because she's in that mindset, she's really, really good at rephrasing. And I absolutely adore the ability to do that. I just mm-hmm, maybe lack it a little bit.
[00:20:27] Chris: so, Hey, speaking of unconscious bias, I, I think mm-hmm, , um, maybe not totally related, but I know that you are at least on your LinkedIn profile.
[00:20:35] Chris: I believe it says you're a diverse hiring advocate. Yes. And so I think it'd be interesting for us to dive a little bit into what is diverse hiring and, and how do we do more of.
[00:20:46] Leslie: Awesome. Well, I think one really cool thing about my engineering team is just the incredible variety of backgrounds. People have.
[00:20:55] Leslie: One person was a circus Acrobat for a while. Uh, another of my engineers is a Michelin star chef who switched engineering. Yeah, it's really great. And I feel like all of those experiences still have helped them to become better engineer. For example, being a chef, you need serious project management skills, right?
[00:21:19] Leslie: You need to be able to keep track of all of these pieces that are going on at once. That's a pretty advanced skill for a lot of engineers. So. It's amazing how many workplace skills are universal. So one of the most important things with, you know, diverse hiring is your sourcing pipeline, right? I mean, honest, you see a lot of companies you're, you know, you're trolling on LinkedIn for folks.
[00:21:42] Leslie: What's the first thing they do. Uh, they like put in a search for like people who've only gone to Stanford, only worked at Google, all of those things. So if you have a non-diverse sourcing in, you're gonna get non-diverse out. So that's step one. You have to sort of break yourself of that habit. Step two, let's be honest.
[00:22:00] Leslie: I work at a very small startup because you're pulling in a larger pool. You're going to spend more time at your phone screen stage or your first technical screening stage filtering out more people. Right? So a lot of people sometimes will say to me, I don't have time to do this. This, this will take too much time for my engineers.
[00:22:17] Leslie: And I get it because when I was designing my pipeline, that was a major concern of mine. Also very important to keep reinforcing to all of your engineers. That interviewing is very important, like say interviewing is the only way that you can double your output by hiring a second person and make sure that you give your engineers credit when it comes to promotion time for their interviewing work.
[00:22:39] Leslie: Another issue I've seen that makes engineers hate interviewing is that like, you know, one engineer will do 10 interviews for a week and another engineer will be like, I don't wanna do any. And the engineer did 10 interviews. Doesn't get the promotion because they've had less time to spend on their primary project.
[00:22:55] Leslie: It should be the other way around. It should be like interview person, not doing any interviews, you're not meeting expectations because you're not interviewing, which is an integral part of your job. It's really important. So, yeah, so I feel like finding that was huge. Also there's a lot of great coding boot camps out nowadays.
[00:23:13] Leslie: So I found, uh, app academy and hack reactor to both have really high quality graduates. I'm sure there are many others that are amazing. Those are just the two from the top of my head and they have big alumni networks. So I guarantee if you email them and say, Hey, I've got this job posting. And especially if you're looking for someone.
[00:23:33] Leslie: In the zero to four years of experience range, they will send it out and you will get a flood of candidates, which is great. , it's basically free advertisement. Do a lot of LinkedIn sourcing. And, uh, AngelList also has job ads and a lot of people, AngelList is starting to sort of become a like second tier LinkedIn.
[00:23:53] Leslie: And there's a lot of people in there. So it's really just starting that also, when you're doing LinkedIn searching, searching for sort of keywords or organizations, people might be in, I love dev color. It's an organization for black software engineers that basically helps, uh, support them and give them networks.
[00:24:11] Leslie: So search for people who are part of dev color dev color also has their own job boards. You know, you can post up there. Um, The Grace Hopper conference and Richard, uh, Richard Tapia conference as well. Anyone has any of those keywords in their, in their LinkedIn, another great way to source and, and find people who may be more diverse posting on Twitter and getting your Twitter networks to retweet.
[00:24:35] Leslie: Also, it can be a good source. So really you just have to spread a very wide net. And then after you've got in people through that technical screen stage, it's also very important to be thinking about your interview process. One failure case I see at a lot of companies is they have these very algorithm, heavy questions that come basically straight from the Stanford CS program.
[00:25:25] Leslie: Wanna make sure you're interviewing for the right thing, not for, has someone studied how to interview at Google or has someone gone to Stanford CS? And then also the more exact you can be about what you're looking for. Put a lot of thought into that interview process, the easier it is for engineers to be more objective in their grading, because you've said exactly what you're looking for.
[00:25:48] Leslie: Instead of I'm looking for a good engineer, which allow. What, what is a good engineer there? There's a lot of subjectivity there. And when you have that, then you make it easier for people to pass based on the important criteria instead of pass, based on a good feeling. So that's my secret sauce. It's a lot of steps, but I think it's really important because interviewing is the most important thing that you can do as a leader.
[00:26:15] Zoe: Well, I think one thing that, uh, one of my friends said is when you are asked to interview, you're not often told how to interview and you're not trained and it's hard to interview doing it properly is hard. You know, I can interview somebody rubbishly, um, that's not worth, but I can interview somebody really poorly and yeah, I've done it.
[00:26:38] Zoe: But would that even be the right person, which you mentioned, and also. Am I being extremely biased. And the biggest challenge we have is hiring in our own image. You know, the point you made about getting people that are diverse. A lot of times, people tune out when we talk about diversity, cuz they're like, okay, I will hire a woman and that's not what we mean.
[00:26:59] Zoe: Diversity is diversity of thought, diversity of skills, diversity of experience. You know, there's so many different factors. But if you don't get trained on how to hire and you don't get trained on how to interview people, it can be really hard to see what success is in a different type of person. And that comment about, I think you touched on making sure you bring it forward to your conscious mind.
[00:27:24] Zoe: Why do you think this is better than another person? Why do you think this skill is going to make that difference? You know, and also one thing I really liked from unconscious bias training was talking about actually, Time of day also affects your opinion. If you book a interview at lunchtime and you're going to be hungry, you're going be a little bit more impatient versus booking somebody in the morning.
[00:27:49] Zoe: If you work better in the morning or booking someone in the evening or afternoon, if you are better in the afternoon. And if you book somebody right at the end of the day and then go home, trying to write those notes up from yesterday's interview is unfair. You have to book time to actually write up your notes from that interview.
[00:28:06] Leslie: Such a good point. Always make sure you put a half hour in your calendar after an interview to write your notes down when they're fresh, because especially as a manager, you are always switching your trains of thoughts. So often it can be so hard to remember what happened in the morning. let alone the day before, and also you've brought up such a good point of interviewing is a skill on both directions.
[00:28:28] Leslie: If you wanna practice interviewing, you can call up like university career centers. Love to have people who will do fake interviews. So call up like a local university in your city and call up their career center. And if they don't have it call up another career center and just say, Hey, I'm a software engineer network engineer.
[00:28:47] Leslie: I wanna do interviews for people in your program as fake interviews, as practice, and the students will be happy to get that practice. You'll be happy cuz you get that practice.
[00:28:56] Zoe: That's a really good point. I went to college and I did, uh, interview thing as part of my program. And the feedback I got was that when I know the answer, I get too happy.
[00:29:08] Zoe: So I have to regulate my emotions a little bit better. and it's like, if I know the answer, I just, oh, and I get so excited and I answer it. But if I don't know the answer, I'm like, oh, I've gotta think about this one. And actually that's actually really good feedback. It doesn't seem like it, cause it wasn't a technical thing.
[00:29:23] Zoe: It was, you know, I can tell exactly what you're thinking.
[00:29:27] Leslie: Mm-hmm .
[00:29:30] Chris: Well, I think, unfortunately we are at about the amount of time we had for today. Leslie, truly thank you for sharing your story with the imposter syndrome network and, and the advice and everything you've given us today. This was great. And thank you to everyone who is listening for your attention and your support in case you are unaware.
[00:29:49] Chris: We have a LinkedIn group for the imposter syndrome network that we'd love for you to join and continue the conversation between episodes. So check it. Before we sign off, Leslie, I would love to know what is your favorite non-technical book
[00:30:05] Leslie: Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson, go pick it up and read it.
[00:30:09] Leslie: Very near future climate science fiction, very pessimistic, but it ends up with a way forward out of our current climate crisis.
[00:30:18] Chris: Wow. That sounds great. Fantastic. Thanks. I know you're on Twitter, but just to check in and make sure where can folks find you at or, or if they wanted to chat. And also, do you have any ongoing projects or stuff that, uh, you'd like us in the network to know about?
[00:30:31] Chris: Yeah.
[00:30:32] Leslie: Uh, you can find me on Twitter @lesliegeek. I'm on LinkedIn, you search for Leslie Carr. And of course, if you're looking for career growth, software employee feedback and progression software, check out www.pando.com.
[00:30:48] Chris: Fantastic. See you all next.