Lisa Forte

Transcript is automatically generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the imposter syndrome network podcast, where everyone belongs, particularly those of you who think you don't. My name is Chris Grundman and I'm here with my co-host Zoe rose. 

[00:00:21] Zoe: Hey! 

[00:00:22] Chris: This is the Lisa Forte episode. Which might blow your minds. Lisa is a speaker, trainer, entrepreneur, high altitude climber, and caver.

[00:00:31] Chris: She has starred in several documentary films and is a regular on BBC news as well as radio and national papers.

[00:00:41] Chris: Hello, Lisa, would you like to introduce yourself to the imposter syndrome network? 

[00:00:45] Lisa: Hi, it's great to be here. I'm Lisa Forte and yeah, I'm a partner at Red Goat Cybersecurity. I've been doing that for sort of four years now. And yeah, you gave an interesting and accurate intro to me already, so I shan't repeat it.

[00:00:58] Chris: Awesome. I'm glad I got it right. I'd like to actually start at the beginning if we can. What was your first ever job and how did that lead to a career in technology? 

[00:01:09] Lisa: So I have a really odd route into tech and I actually started in security, working in maritime security. So protecting ships from pirates, actual pirates.

[00:01:22] Lisa: Um, when I've said I sort of worked in counter piracy and people misinterpreted that as me stopping video piracy, which is not as cool and not what I do. So yeah. I used to work for maritime security companies and we used to essentially. Get a ship from a client and we used to have to protect that ship from pirates.

[00:01:41] Lisa: So we would fortify the ship using lots of different things. And then we'd put armed guards on board the ship as well to try and protect it. Because at this point in time, it was a huge issue off the coast of Somalia. So that's what my career in security started. It was defending ships from pirates and yeah, that was my, uh, my very odd start in security.

[00:02:02] Chris: That's wild. Really cool. I've been to, uh, Djibouti. And so I've heard a little bit about, yeah. Piracy and off the coast of Somalia. Anyway, how does that translate into, you know, I mean, obviously that's security, it's more physical security, I think in the military, they talk about kinetic security. Right, right.

[00:02:20] Chris: But anyway, how did that translate into more cyber security, which I think is what your focus is now.

[00:02:26] Lisa: Right. So there was sort of two sides to it, really. So firstly, my main sort of role in that capacity was to prepare a plan for how to defend the ship. But also what happens if the pirates get on board? So how do we slow them down from getting to the bridge?

[00:02:40] Lisa: How do we protect the crew onboard the ship? You know, put them in a Citadel, protect their lives. How do we go about sorting out the ransom? How do we go about the ship, all that sort of stuff, which translates a lot to what I do now. And I'm sure we'll talk about what I do now in a bit, but I sort of do that same function, but for cyber security and cyber disaster planning sort of thing.

[00:02:59] Lisa: So it sort of translates directly to that. But also there was a very online level because one of the things we started to realize, one of the patterns we started to see was that actually the pirates were very, very good at targeting ships that had no armed security on them. And we started to think, well, how are they letting ships go past that have armed guards on, but not.

[00:03:20] Lisa: And then targeting just the ships that do not, there's gotta be some intelligence. And so there was a lot of work done. A lot of OSINT done, a lot of research done that actually linked a lot of people in London and in some European countries to pirate networks in Somalia and a whole investigation was done by international organizations.

[00:03:39] Lisa: So I played a part in that, which is where I started to get very interested in the digital component of security. Then I moved into counter-terrorism policing and then into the one of the police cyber crime units. And that's where I got heavily invested in the cyber element, as opposed to the pirates on the high sea element of security.

[00:03:59] Zoe: Not gonna lie. All I could picture whilst you were talking was you wouldn't download a ship. 

[00:04:06] Lisa: it's a fair point. It's a fair security point. 

[00:04:09] Zoe: That's amazing. That's such an interesting career. I didn't actually know about that. I knew. Well, I knew you worked in a police boy. I didn't know about your adventures.

[00:04:20] Zoe: Yeah, I suppose. Cause you also do social engineering now as well. 

[00:04:24] Lisa: Yeah. So my main roles now is, uh, I, I focus very heavily now on helping companies prepare for a cyber attack, actually. So we actually go into companies, we simulate a cyber attack, we help their board run through what they would do, how they would react to it, how they would respond to different things, you know, what are you gonna tell clients?

[00:04:45] Lisa: What are you gonna tell the press, things like this. And then we sort of produce a report on how they could improve, because one of the main things that we see a lot with cyber attacks is that. The response post attack is really, really critical. And if you get it wrong, it very publicly becomes a horrendous thing.

[00:05:03] Lisa: So it's really important how you respond to these things. And that very much comes back to what I did when I was working in piracy or anti piracy. Shall I say I wasn't working in piracy during my time as a pirate um, yeah, so it very much comes back to that same thing about working out when the worst case scenario happens in your defenses fail, what happens and how do you handle that.

[00:05:26] Lisa: So that's my area of interest. 

[00:05:29] Zoe: nothing big, you know, just everything important. I, I like that the, um, court of public opinion is that what they call it, but, but it's, it's so true. It's not only how do you handle it, but how do you give reassurance to your consumers that you are not rubbish and you actually do care about security without saying we care about security.

[00:05:52] Zoe: That's a really good area to be in. 

[00:05:54] Lisa: Yeah, definitely. And it's not something you can just, blag I think blag is maybe a very British term, but sort of make up on the, you know, as you go along, it's not something you can, you can do because when you're under a lot of pressure, you don't make good decisions. No human being makes good decisions under a lot of pressure.

[00:06:11] Lisa: You make mistakes under a lot of pressure. So it's very important to pre-plan out as much as you can, because when you're in that situation, you really want a checklist of things you need to do. Because, you know, God, I know this when I'm burning the dinner, it all starts to go completely wrong as soon as I start to get panicked.

[00:06:29] Lisa: So it's a very similar thing. I'm not a very good cook side note. 

[00:06:33] Zoe: Well, I mean, you're, you're Italian though. So you get a pass because by default you're better than I am. 

[00:06:39] Lisa: yeah. I, I think I get pass for all of my failings because of that one point 

[00:06:45] Zoe: I'm okay with that. But that kinda goes to like, I suppose, for a lot of people looking at you, just your job title alone Partner at Red Goat, Cybersecurity.

[00:06:54] Zoe: What does. Kind of look like, obviously you just talked through quite a few different things of, you know, preparing people doing simulations and that, but your day to day, you know, how do you get to that point? And also, you know, what are the things that people can do that maybe want to get to where you are, especially.

[00:07:14] Zoe: I mean, I love red teaming, but it's not my area of expertise. I would say. And I love doing simulations, disaster simulations. I find so sexy, but what are some things that people can kind of prepare themselves to be in a place where they can then provide those services? 

[00:07:33] Lisa: Yeah. So I think there's a couple of things. I think the first thing for me as a lesson when I started Red Goat, which was what four and a bit years ago now, One of the things that I think is really tough actually, is that when you start your own business, even if you just go out as a contractor or whether you start a company like I did, you have to become HR, marketing, sales, accountancy strategy.

[00:07:57] Lisa: So you can be really good at the topic that you're selling at the service that you're selling, but it's not just that it's a whole load of things that you've never read about before that you've never understood before. I have no idea how to do marketing. When I started the company. No idea at all. No idea how to do HR.

[00:08:14] Lisa: Didn't it. Anything about accountancy? And you have to learn all of those things. So it is a really steep learning curve. And it's really not as simple as just, I'm really good at this. I'm gonna go out and create my own business. It's there's a lot to it. So I'd say that the first kind of year and a half, two years were really hard for me.

[00:08:33] Lisa: I didn't have much of a life at all. Not that I have a lot of a life now, but I had less of a life. And it is that part of it is really, really hard in terms of actually doing it. I think you just have to be someone who's really interested in being creative because when you are trying to simulate scenarios, when you're trying to come up with solutions on how we defend a company, you've gotta be super creative.

[00:08:56] Lisa: You've gotta be able to think outside the box and think on your feet. You have to be able to kind of come up with solutions that might work. And sometimes those solutions are really difficult, for example, or most of my clients want ransomware as a scenario to run through, like, how do we Def you know, what happens if we get hit with ransomware?

[00:09:12] Lisa: And one of the really difficult conversations that you have to have is do we pay the ransom? And a lot of companies pay ransom. And the reason for that is there's this sort of moral, I'm not gonna pay. It's completely wrong, that we all subscribe to. And we all agree to, but what you have to also realize is from a business perspective, there's a business operation situation, which is like, we can't continue unless we pay the ransom.

[00:09:36] Lisa: So do we fold the business or do we pay the ransom? And then it gets very complicated. So you've got to be able to have an open mind and be aware of business problems. So not just cyber idealistic security tech solutions, but also thinking from a business perspective, like a CFO or a CEO of a big company, how are they gonna view this risk?

[00:09:57] Lisa: Cuz they view it differently. So you have to be able to be very adaptive, I think, to do it as a role. But yeah, I would say that those two things are. Definitely things to be aware of, because if you go it alone, you now have to do everything. So just be aware 

[00:10:14] Chris: yeah, definitely. I think that's, uh, a well known secret among entrepreneurs, right?

[00:10:17] Chris: Is all the other stuff we have to do. If I can, I wanna kind of underline or repeat back a couple of things you said, because I think there's super important, right? One is this idea of creativity. And I think that I know for myself anyway, just the way I was raised and going into engineering, I almost felt like creativity was something that other people did, right.

[00:10:34] Chris: If they're artists or something else. And definitely as I've moved through my career have found that the more I can embrace creativity in my own life and in my own work, uh, the better I do. And so I think that's really, really a good point you're making that creativity is a part of this, right. And we think of a lot of times cybersecurity or the other kind of IT professions as lacking that.

[00:10:54] Chris: But I think it's really a, a big piece of it. And the other thing that you said, this is another common thing we've heard, right? Which is this kind of expansion beyond just pure technical skills. And, and obviously you're saying this in two realms, right? One the business side, kind of starting your own business and having to learn all these other pieces, but also just in your actual work, understanding the business well enough to be able to provide good recommendations is, is very important.

[00:11:15] Chris: And so kind of, again, branching beyond just the keyboard and the monitor and, and understanding a little bit more about what the people you're working with, have to do and what their goals are. Sounds like that's important as well. 

[00:11:26] Lisa: Yeah. And I think on the creativity point, I think one of the reasons people find it quite hard is because in order to be creative, you have to be quite open to failure.

[00:11:36] Lisa: I think you have to be willing to go. I'm gonna try this. I don't know if it's gonna work. We'll see. Oh, it doesn't work. Okay. I'll come up with a new solution and that's part and parcel of the creative process, that ability and that willingness to accept failure. And I think generally we're very afraid of failure.

[00:11:52] Lisa: So what we do is instead of being creative and trying new things, we stick to things that sort of work, but not really ideal, but they're not gonna make us feel like we've totally failed. And so I think that's like a really big problem actually. because failure is how we progress and how we develop as human beings.

[00:12:10] Zoe: Yeah. That's one thing that I've noticed that I always was surprised about. Like when I started in industry, it was a good while ago and virtualization wasn't necessarily as big as it is today. And I remember talking to like people that were much more senior than me, about virtualization and to them, it was this not well understood thing. And so instead of wanting to apply it and use it where it fits, they were like, no, it's bad. It doesn't work. And then in networking, we've got the, uh, fun stuff of IPv6 and where it's such a scary topic for so many people. They just avoid it because they choose the safe option is, uh, natting to how IPv4.

[00:12:52] Zoe: So I think that's, that's a point that I think kind of gets to. Me, is that not just the ability or allowing yourself to fail, but allowing yourself to try something harder, knowing the likelihood is you're going to fail, but how do you move past it? Is there ever some kind of a situation that you're in or you've been in where it's like either maybe you failed or maybe you were very, very anxious about taking another step and how did you kind of get through that?

[00:13:23] Lisa: God there's been loads. I mean, for a start, just starting my own business was terrifying because I didn't know how it was gonna play out and how, you know, it sort of feels like a potentially very public failure and that's really difficult. But I think one thing that actually works really well for me is I'm a climber.

[00:13:42] Lisa: And part and parcel of climbing. In fact, actually part of the process of climbing is continuous failure. You know, you try something, you, you, you can't do it. You fail, you try again, you get a bit stronger, you do some training, you come back, you try it again. And that's part and parcel of what climbing is. That's the whole process. So I think for me, I've kind of desensitized to the concept that I'm gonna fail and see it less as like a final destination and more like a learning opportunity. 

[00:14:08] Lisa: And, you know, people it's difficult because social media plays such a negative role in this. I think from a psychological perspective, people post the times they've succeeded. The opportunities they've got. The awards they've won. They never post about the speaking gigs they got turned down for, or the clients that didn't go with them. You know, we don't post that. So our conception of what normality is, is so distorted that we think everyone is succeeding. And so when we fail at something or get rejected, it's like, oh my God, I'm, I'm awful.

[00:14:41] Lisa: Right. Which I guess comes into this imposter syndrome kind of concept. And I think for me, there's a lot of problems with confidence that stem from. The way we use social media and the way we engage in this kind of world, this digital world. And so I think failure gets really, it's kind of ends up being this really dirty thing that you just don't wanna post about and you feel awful about.

[00:15:05] Lisa: So I'd say like, there's been lots of situations in my life. I mean, constant rejection on loads of different levels. Constantly failing at climbing, constantly failing at caving, constantly failing at loads of things I do. But every single time you do that, there's something to learn from it and improve.

[00:15:21] Lisa: And you can either let it really get to you, or you can learn the lesson from it and try something new and be creative and come up with a new strategy.

[00:15:32] Chris: So on that point, I think that's really good advice. And obviously you're someone who is very successful, widely recognized as an expert. Right? I mean, we talked about BBC and, and documentaries and definitely wide.

[00:15:42] Chris: Uh, you just waved your little hand and I know the listeners can't see that, but that's, uh, I feel like that's a little bit of imposter syndrome there. You're just brushing me off, but you are very successful and widely recognized as an expert. And I think I know the answer already based on that gesture, but do you ever feel like you're not smart enough?

[00:15:57] Lisa: Yeah. All the time. All the time. Yeah, it's a weird feeling. Right? Cause I was actually looking into this a while back and at the term, the sort of concept of imposter syndrome was actually from a study that was in like the 1970s that was done by these two psychologists. And at the time they called it imposter phenomenon and it has morphed into imposter syndrome and they actually, the study, the psychological study that they did was on high achieving women at the time.

[00:16:23] Lisa: And they found that they had a disproportionate disbelief in themselves, basically. And they often had this kind of feeling that they weren't as smart as everybody else or as talented or whatever it was that they were doing. And these psychologists found that actually sort of this distrust in themselves and this lack of self-belief was like at its core.

[00:16:44] Lisa: And as I said, the more successful you were the more imposter syndrome you felt. So this psychology study said, and I think for me, there was this, this moment. So I watched this documentary. And they were interviewing this tour de France cyclist. And he said something that really struck me and, and sort of changed my thinking on it.

[00:17:03] Lisa: And he said that he never wants to feel like he's the best, because he said the moment I feel like I'm the best is the moment someone's gonna overtake me. And actually by feeling that I'm not the best, it means that I'm continuously feeling pressure to improve. I'm continuously training, I'm continuously improving.

[00:17:22] Lisa: And the moment I feel I'm the best I'm gonna be complacent and someone's gonna overtake me. And I thought that's a really positive spin on something that we view so negatively. So now I try to see it as an opportunity for me to think about how I'm gonna improve and how I'm gonna grow my knowledge base further, how I'm gonna improve my public speaking, how I'm gonna improve, whatever it is I'm trying to do and learn from the people that perhaps I view as superior in some way, in comparison to me, as opposed to judging myself against them.

[00:17:57] Zoe: I really, really like the way you said that actually, and that ties into the next kind of topic that I really wanted to talk to you about was, um, speaking, keynote, speaking, and writing. And I always have this fear. I mean, I obviously do keynote speaking as well, and I do, you know, also do writing, but I'm always fearful when I click the publish button and I'm always fearful when I get onto stage.

[00:18:20] Zoe: And I have been told many times that actually, and I tell the people, actually that fear is helpful. It means you care. And it means that you want to do a good job. On that topic of keynote speaking and writing. Do you have any advice for others who maybe want to go down that path? Because I do know for a lot of people, it is scary, but also how in the world do you get there?

[00:18:43] Lisa: Yeah, it's a difficult one. So I'm gonna bring in another climbing analogy because that's what climbers do we talk about climbing? Even if climbing is not the topic, it's a hallmark of all climbing community members. So in climbing people look at you and they kind of go, oh my God, you've got no fear of Heights.

[00:18:57] Lisa: You've got no fear of anything, but the purpose of climbing is actually all of us feel fear almost constantly when we're climbing. But it's about getting used to working out what is useful fear, i.e: Oh my God. I've put myself into a situation that's genuinely life threatening, which is really rare versus this distorted fear that actually, I'm just feeling fear and feeling anxiety, but it's not helpful because I'm a tied to a rope.

[00:19:23] Lisa: I've got a piece of gear in the wall I'm completely safe, but my brain doesn't understand that. And that's very similar with speaking. You're going on stage. You're not gonna die. There's no tiger in the room. No, one's gonna shoot you. You are literally going on stage to give a talk. Nothing massively bad is gonna happen to your life as a result of that.

[00:19:40] Lisa: So the fear isn't useful fear, right? So it's about learning how to manage that and suppress it and calm yourself down. Or as some famous climber said instead of looking at it as fear frame it as: this is excitement because actually from a physiological perspective, fear and excitement produce exactly the same physiological symptoms, right?

[00:20:02] Lisa: We sweat a little bit. Our heart rate elevates our pupils dilate exactly the same kind of physiological symptoms between the two things. So I think that's one way of dealing with the, the fear side of it. But I think the key thing with writing and speaking is do it because you want to do it and do it because it's a topic you care about.

[00:20:22] Lisa: And you're really interested in it and you want to share, don't do it for the sake of it and make sure it's about something you really are passionate about because when you hear someone talk and you listen to what they're talking about, and you can hear that passion, you can hear that interest in their voice and in the way they're conveying their message.

[00:20:42] Lisa: It's intoxicating. Right? You can listen to someone talk about thimbles. They absolutely have no idea anything about thimbles, but if they really care about it, I will listen to it and be captivated by this story. And so that's far more important than just doing it for the sake of ticking a box on your career.

[00:21:01] Lisa: Like it's really important because our lives are short. And if you're not doing things because you genuinely want to do it, you have to ask yourself why on earth am I doing this? 

[00:21:12] Chris: Yeah, I think that's totally fair and very good advice. Speaking of things that you're doing, because you're passionate and care about them and maybe love them.

[00:21:20] Chris: I know you've talked about or have done things around tech for good and this tech for good philosophy. What is tech for good philosophy and how do I adopt it? 

[00:21:30] Lisa: So generally speaking, I learned about it from a, a group called the doc project who do a lot of it in the UK. And actually it's just doing, it's putting your tech, engineering, science, mathematics, cyber skills, whatever it is.

[00:21:45] Lisa: Into something that essentially is largely pro bono to protect and help people for the good of society, for the good of the environment, whatever, whatever the cause is. So for me, I've done a few projects. I've helped start up the cyber volunteers 19 movement during the pandemic with my friend Dan Card.

[00:22:02] Lisa: And that helped to protect hospitals in Europe during COVID 19, I've been involved in respect in security, which I've, I've now stepped away from, but have been heavily involved in setting up, which was about stopping bullying and harassment in our community. And I also do lots of volunteer work for charities that protect victims of domestic violence, helping them with their cyber security, because not because it's gonna profit me anything, not because it's gonna give me anything, but just because it's the right thing to do. So it's about using your skills and your knowledge to do something that benefits someone else, another group or the environment, something like that 

[00:22:39] Chris: makes sense. I know that one of these groups you've been involved with, or I think even kind of started was cyber volunteers, 19 one thing, I mean, it's interesting the work that you're doing there, but also for this audience, I think it's interesting.

[00:22:53] Chris: What goes into actually starting a movement. How do you one, you know, where does the, the hutspah come from to like, feel like, oh, I can start a movement and go do this thing. And then also, like, what is the actual like day to day or, or reality of making it happen, making it become reality. 

[00:23:09] Lisa: Wow. Well, we learned some really fast lessons, so we, we started it.

[00:23:14] Lisa: So in the, when the pandemic first hit, so March, 2020, we were having a conversation and we were hearing a lot of chatter from the NHS and some other hospitals in Europe that were having issues that were having, seeing an increased number of attack attempts on their networks. And one of my friends said, you know, why, why don't we do something?

[00:23:33] Lisa: Just the three of us, myself. Radden and Dan, just to help these companies, that's how it initially started as an idea. And then my friend Dan Card, who was probably the most, how would you describe a motivated individual I've ever met? Decided overnight that it would go from the three of us to like a big organization of volunteers.

[00:23:53] Lisa: So very quickly it grew from. Basically three people to 3000 people over the whole of Europe. We had a sister organization in south America that set up. We had a sister organization in Australia that set up all within the space of a few months to say it was chaos would be a really kind of generous way of describing what ensued, because it was absolute chaos.

[00:24:17] Lisa: We had to translate. Sort of threat reports and vulnerability reports and all sorts of things into all these different languages. And it was just an absolute nightmare. But the intention was there. And we learned a lot from the experience in terms of doing other volunteer stuff in the future. But I think it's about working out what you're passionate about, what the cause is that you care about, is it, you know, charities that help kids or animals or whatever it is.

[00:24:43] Lisa: And then looking at organizations that are already in that space, if anybody, and either joining forces with them, which would be the easiest way to do it. Or trying to start something up yourself with a group of similarly minded individuals. But again, and I can't keep coming back to this. It's got to be driven because you actually care because it's a lot of work and it's a lot of commitment.

[00:25:04] Lisa: And if you doing it for any other reason, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you will regret it because it will just be so much work. So you have to really do it because it's something you genuinely care about and want to input into society. 

[00:25:19] Zoe: Hundred percent. Looking at your career and knowing you personally, you are bloody motivated and you do a lot of very impressive things.

[00:25:28] Zoe: My last question is regarding mentors and sponsors. Do you ever have, have you ever had a mentor sponsor? Do you seek them out or maybe you've become the mentor sponsor. That's kind of helped you along the. 

[00:25:41] Lisa: I had a few people actually, and the people who I found to be the most valuable, I suppose to me have actually been people who haven't been in cyber at all and have come at it from a completely different perspective because actually sometimes what I think can happen in our field is that you get a lot of tunnel vision.

[00:26:02] Lisa: As to what the best course of action is and what you should be doing and how your career should progress. But actually sometimes someone coming at it from a completely different perspective can see opportunities that you would've just discarded. So I think in some ways the role of a mentor is also to open your mind to new opportunities.

[00:26:21] Lisa: So those are the people who I found them had given the most value. I've done a few mentoring sessions with friends who do stuff for caps lock, which is an organization in the UK, but I haven't done an awful lot to be honest. It's something that I feel a lot of imposter syndrome as we're on this, this podcast doing.

[00:26:40] Lisa: And I sort of struggle with the concept of doing, but maybe, maybe in my future, maybe. 

[00:26:45] Chris: Well, sadly, we've reached the point where we need to wrap this episode up, Lisa. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story with the imposter syndrome network today. And, uh, thank you to all our listeners for your attention and your support.

[00:26:58] Chris: Please remember to follow, like, and share this episode. If you enjoyed it or found it helpful and feel free to join us on LinkedIn for all the, between the episode conversations as well. But before we shut off the lights, Lisa, I'd love to know we've talked about your, your motivation and then the amount of stuff you've done over your career so far.

[00:27:15] Chris: I really am curious how you stay on the top of your game day in and day out. Do you have a morning routine that you could describe for us? Or how do you keep it together? 

[00:27:25] Lisa: I drink an awful lot of coffee for a start. That's where a lot of my motivation comes from, but for me, it's about routine. And actually just generally in my day, you know, I, I do a lot of exercise.

[00:27:37] Lisa: My diet's really important. I work hard, climb a lot, train a lot. And that kind of keeps me quite balanced. I think for me, the key thing that I find actually really draining is the sort of incessant scrolling through social media. I feel really drains my energy. And when you actually stop that for a period of time, You'll actually notice quite a lot of clarity coming back and quite a lot more motivation and you suddenly find time for a lot more things.

[00:28:07] Lisa: So I recommend trying to reduce that and you'll be amazed by how much more you can get done. 

[00:28:13] Chris: I think that's really good advice. And I'd like to plus one on that I've even started subscribing to like old school, real magazines that come in the mail so that I can read those. When I have downtime, instead of flipping to my phone and scrolling through what can often be nonsense 

[00:28:26] Lisa: most of the time it's nonsense.

[00:28:28] Zoe: Maybe we are getting old we are, 

[00:28:30] Lisa: we are getting old. 

[00:28:33] Chris: All right. Awesome. Are there any projects that you're working on? We talked about a few, but maybe you can kinda go back through some of the list of like the highlight real stuff that you would like the network here to be aware of. And also is part of that.

[00:28:44] Chris: Where can folks connect with you? Is there social stuff that you do where people can chat with you if they wanna follow up or anything like that? 

[00:28:50] Lisa: Yeah. So, uh, I'll start with the last question first, cuz it's front of my mind. So at Lisa 40 K is my Twitter handle. I'm also on LinkedIn. So you can catch up with me on either of those two platforms.

[00:29:00] Lisa: I blog on my company website, which is red hyphen goat.com. And in terms of projects, I'm kind of looking a lot into actually an interesting project at the moment that I'm working on, which is looking at how we could potentially stop or reduce the spread and effect of ransomware across the globe and what policies at governmental level, perhaps we could be lobbying to implement.

[00:29:23] Lisa: So if you have interesting thoughts on that, anybody at any level of your career, please reach out. I'm always open to. New and creative ideas. So that's what I'm kind of looking at in my personal life, at the moment out of just pure interest. 

[00:29:36] Chris: Perfect. That's great. Well, we'll see you all next week.