Nathaniel Avery

Transcript is automatically generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello and welcome to the imposter syndrome network podcast, where everyone belongs, especially if you don't think you do. I'm Chris Grundemann and I'm here with my co-host Zoe Rose 

[00:00:18] Zoe: Hey! 

[00:00:19] Chris: And this is the Nathaniel Avery episode. So we're here with Nathaniel, Nate, Avery, who is a outbound product manager at Google

[00:00:33] Chris: Nate. Hi, how are you doing? 

[00:00:35] Nathaniel: Hey, I'm doing great. Yeah, I'm a outbound product manager at Google these days. I've been doing that for about three and a half months now. It's a challenging role, but it's super fun. I guess, coming up, I came up with, through the infrastructure ranks. So 20 plus years kind of gotten me here to this point.

[00:00:53] Chris: I did notice that on your Twitter profile, it says cloud advocate at Google. And obviously we're talking about your official title here is outbound product manager. Can you tell us a little bit more about what it actually is your job? What do you do? 

[00:01:06] Nathaniel: Oh, okay. So I put cloud advocate on there because it's a little easier for people to understand because not a lot of folks have seen.

[00:01:13] Nathaniel: Outbound product manager. You know, they may have seen product manager, but they don't get the outbound part. So, uh, we sit at this really interesting point where we try to help make sure our internal folks like, you know, CEs and such as well as customers understand the product. And in this case, it's, uh, Google Cloud Platform. And, uh, our CI/CD tools. 

[00:01:36] Chris: Okay. Wow. So it's more of an educational role. I, I get the outbound now, so you're not necessarily taking the customer input into the product developers you're taking, what the product developers have done out to the customer. 

[00:01:46] Nathaniel: Actually it is, it's both ways. Okay. You know, our, our job is to help gather that that customer feedback, understand it and work with our research folks in UX.

[00:01:56] Nathaniel: And UR as well as the folks in the field. And so there's a, a really cool give and take. Where they say what they're finding, you know, what's landing with customers and, you know, what's sort of really resonating with them. And then, you know, we're able to say, Hey, you know, when we spoke to customers, we saw this.

[00:02:10] Nathaniel: So yeah, it, it's an interesting back and forth, you know, cause at the end of the day you just wanna make sure that the product is good for, for those who use it. 

[00:02:19] Chris: Absolutely. That makes a ton of sense to me. And you said this is a new role, right? You've only been there since about March or so. 

[00:02:25] Nathaniel: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:26] Nathaniel: It's uh, three and a half months. You know, it's interesting. I never really saw myself being at Google. I mean, don't get me wrong. It's freaking amazing. But it just, wasn't on my, my list. Right. You know, it's, it's one of those things where you say, yeah, you know, this is gonna sound really messed up, but I could see myself working at almost any tech company other than Google, you know?

[00:02:49] Nathaniel: Cause when you, you know, when you're coming up in industry, it's like, oh my God. They're like, Brilliant. You know, these guys are doing like crazy earth changing stuff at times and it's like, I'm just me, you know, it's weird. 

[00:03:03] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I think where I think we're touching on the imposter syndrome part of, uh, of the podcast there.

[00:03:07] Chris: That's interesting with 20 years of experience, right? I mean, I think you are one of the brilliant folks. What did lead that to change? Right. I mean, if you hadn't seen yourself at Google, uh, and it is a new role, right. I'm really interested in kind of what. I mean, did they come, come reach out to you? Did you reach out to them?

[00:03:20] Chris: How did this, uh, come about? I mean, how did you end up at Google? 

[00:03:24] Nathaniel: Honestly, just a friend reached out, you know, he said, Hey, you know, I'm here at Google and would you like to join? He said, I I'm here. It's really awesome. It's great. And then he explained to me, you know, what would be going on with the outbound product manager role.

[00:03:40] Nathaniel: And as it turns out, there was like a lot of overlap with stuff I'd already been doing outside. So like, you know, we met through the Tech Field Day stuff and that's a lot of blog writing video analysis of the market. Just trying to figure out what would make a product tick and where we could improve it.

[00:03:59] Nathaniel: Cause I don't think I'm talking outta school here, but a lot of times behind the scenes of Tech Field Day, the conversations keep going with the product folks and they're asking, like: what would it be like if we did X, Y, or Z, right. You know, cause not everything winds up on camera. So there's been some of that thinking and, and stuff happening kind of in the background.

[00:04:19] Nathaniel: And it turns out that that's like a real job that people do. it's like, who knew? So, uh, so that's how I got here. 

[00:04:26] Zoe: That's interesting because you're not the first person that was spoken to you that said, well, somebody else told me that I'd be a good fit. You know, it's, it's that external validation. That's interesting.

[00:04:37] Zoe: Do you ever find that possibly that maybe that mindset kind of holds you back until somebody else releases it and says actually you're much better and you're much more influential or more skilled than you even realize? 

[00:04:51] Nathaniel: Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, uh, it's kind of funny. I, I look back over the career and.

[00:04:57] Nathaniel: There was a lot to look back on. And I see some of those areas where things worked and maybe where things didn't work and I'd try to figure out, well, well, why was it? Did I stay too long somewhere? Or did I not stay somewhere long enough? Where could I have maybe been more influential if I had, uh, you know, maybe spoken up more for myself or been more present?

[00:05:17] Nathaniel: And, uh, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of an interesting thing.

[00:05:20] Zoe: If you could go back even to one of those specific situations or just in general, what advice would you give yourself? 

[00:05:28] Nathaniel: Here's an interesting one. One of the things that I, I found and I found out the hard way, no one had the answers. Um, so I was in a situation where I was at one place for about 10 years and I left because I, I didn't think I could serve them.

[00:05:45] Nathaniel: Any longer, because I didn't have enough knowledge of the outside world. Right. You know, it was who am I to be taking us into these weird new technological areas and directions when I've not seen it done before. Right. You know, it's like, I'm, I'm not an expert in stuff. I'm just a guy who reads a lot of books, you know, and maybe watch some videos and talk to some folks.

[00:06:07] Nathaniel: So that led me to leave and. It's funny because that's kind of been a theme and a lot of my moving on, it's getting to a place where things start to get a little uncomfortable, but not uncomfortable from like a, you know, a really bad place. It's more of a, I don't wanna do these guys a disservice by giving them bad advice.

[00:06:28] Nathaniel: So yeah, sometimes that, that holds me back. Cuz looking back on it, you know, I moved from one company to another and I've gone, you know, into roles where I got to interact with lots and lots of customers. Really awesome places. Really awesome tech everywhere, but very few places think that they've got everything under control.

[00:06:46] Nathaniel: you know, it's, uh, it's one of the things where it's like, oh, it is kinda like this everywhere. It's very much like just growing up and you realize being an adult means you don't get some magical wisdom one day. Right. You don't just wake up and you're like, oh yeah, I get this. And, and I think tech is kind of the same way.

[00:07:06] Zoe: That's interesting. I have a very similar kind of mindset. It's where I like to explain is I'm almost as scared of being successful, cuz being seen as the expert is bloody terrifying. Cuz I know how much I don't know. Is that kind of resonate with you a bit? 

[00:07:21] Nathaniel: Oh yeah, totally. I have a real hard time labeling myself as an expert in anything, right.

[00:07:28] Nathaniel: It doesn't in my mind, feel fair to other experts. You know, for me to, to try and equate with them because I know my limitations. I know that there's a lot of stuff. I don't know. I'm glad that folks think, I know, know some things, but, uh, yeah. You know, I, I figure, you know, in this, in this business, it's, it's not really about the stuff you don't know, but how can you figure it out?

[00:07:51] Nathaniel: Can you make connections between other things that you have learned and kind of know something about, and at least get yourself to a point of. Okay. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but it should work like this. And now I've got something that I can validate or invalidate. Right. And get a little bit further that way.

[00:08:09] Nathaniel: But yeah. You know, I don't see that as expertise. Right. I see that as just research. 

[00:08:15] Chris: I like to say that experts are a lot like hipsters, that if someone tells you they are one, they probably aren't. Yeah. But I really dig your, uh, like scientific method approach. Right. And, and I think that resonates with me as something that maybe is a common thread between a lot of folks who are successful in technology.

[00:08:33] Chris: Is this willingness to learn. And what's interesting about the willingness to learn is that it first requires you to accept that you don't know something, right? I mean, there's no way to, if you believe, you know it all, then there's no reason to ever look anything up or read anything or research anything.

[00:08:48] Chris: Right. And so you first have to have this really deep humility of knowing that you can know more. And then acting on it and actually taking the work to actually, you know, spend the nights and weekends and early mornings or whenever it is right. Doing the extra studying and watching those videos and, and going the conferences, talking to people and yeah, 

[00:09:04] Nathaniel: no, totally.

[00:09:04] Nathaniel: It's like question everything including yourself. Yeah. That's how you get better. 

[00:09:08] Zoe: That kind of leads us to another point. That is a hot topic in the industry certifications. I see that you have an exceptional amount. I'm speaking from somebody that has one. So, uh, I am interested in your kind of thought process on those.

[00:09:24] Zoe: And I listening to what you've said previously to kind of the way I approach it as well. I suspect I have a similar mindset, but I'm, I'm interested in hearing your. 

[00:09:33] Nathaniel: Okay. The certification thing is, is interesting and it gets into how I got into this industry. It really wasn't planned because it was kind of far back when it wasn't really a thing very much, you know, it wasn't, as we know it today, uh, it really wasn't taught in colleges or at least not where I attended.

[00:09:52] Nathaniel: So I didn't really know. And so as I entered the workforce, I found myself as a sysadmin and I was like, I'm reading, I'm studying and oh, Hey, these certifications are out here. I figured that would be a way for me to sort of prove that I learned it. But then it got to a point where, you know, somewhere in the middle there where you kind of get to hang in this of the certs and you kind of start to realize, okay, here's a thought process.

[00:10:21] Nathaniel: Here's how you do it. And you kind of just get on a treadmill and you kind of keep cranking 'em out. A lot of that was. Really me trying to prove something, you know, to myself, to others. One of the things that I had early on, uh, one of the jobs, it was for a, uh, a systems integrator and they had a, a program at the time where they would take these kids outta college, you know, recent graduates and they would get them cert'd in both Novel and Microsoft.

[00:10:49] Nathaniel: Right. They paid for the whole ride and I'm working there and I'm like, where's my ride. And, uh, they're like, well, no. And so I said, well, I'm just do it myself. And I did, and I just kind of kept doing it, you know, because tech changes. And so you're always learning new stuff and there's always like a new test or a new exam.

[00:11:09] Nathaniel: And. It just kind of worked. And then I wound up in the government space and those certs really paid off because as it turns out, contracts tend to be written with different job requirements in them. And so a job requirement could say, you know, Hey, we need a person with X years of experience. And X certifications. And so having them, you know, was just one of those punches on my ticket.

[00:11:35] Nathaniel: As one of my old, old managers used to say. So, yeah, I, that that's my certification story 

[00:11:41] Chris: are all 15 on LinkedIn, new age shows, 15 certifications. Are all of them still current and active? Or have you let some of 'em slide? 

[00:11:48] Nathaniel: Oh yeah. I've let most of 'em slide because the tech is no longer valid, right? Like, remember I'm old and I did this a long time ago, so one of my exams was in like proxy server for Windows NT.

[00:12:01] Nathaniel: you know, I don't think that's in use anywhere currently, but yeah, you know, it, there does get to a point where you say, I need to be more focused. Maybe they do matter still. Maybe they don't, but that's something that as a decision, everyone has to kind of make for themselves. 

[00:12:17] Zoe: I'm gonna ask question, if you don't wanna answer, that's also okay.

[00:12:20] Zoe: But do you think that coming from a minority background, does that kind of make a difference for you? And do you think that certifications maybe hold a higher need? I know for me personally, I love external validation. I think that's why I think certifications have value. Not cuz I need to get them, but because you know, it's something I think helps me kind of show that I know what I'm talking about. Do you feel like that also kind of plays through in your life? 

[00:12:49] Nathaniel: Yes and no. So here's the thing I grew up primarily in PG county, Maryland. There are a lot of people like me around , you know, who have all sorts of jobs. And so it's a little bit weird.

[00:13:04] Nathaniel: Right. You know, because you don't have a lot of external folks. Saying no, you can't do this. Right. I got more grief for just being a geek. right. You know, that was my crime. If anything, you know, it, it really wasn't till maybe a little bit later on as I started working and I started kind of moving up the ranks and I started to see that there were fewer of us that it even kind of crossed my mind, but it was just me versus me for the most part.

[00:13:35] Zoe: That's really refreshing and nice to actually hear that it didn't actually have that big of an impact in the beginning. That's awesome. 

[00:13:42] Nathaniel: Well, so here's the thing I never graduated. I never graduated college. So in some ways it was to validate that more than, you know, anything else it's. So I, I think that that played more, more into it than anything else 

[00:13:57] Chris: that resonates a lot with me.

[00:13:58] Chris: I definitely feel like my early career, a lot of what I was doing was trying to prove. Myself and my intellect, because I didn't have a degree. Right. And there was a lot of folks around me who did I almost even did this kind of mental. Time, I don't know about you, but you know, when I wasn't, I didn't go to college and I ended up working and for me it was cause I had a family really early and just was doing that, but I was kind of doing this mental checklist every year.

[00:14:21] Chris: I was like, okay, well, you know, I'd be two years into college now and I'm doing this and I'd be four years into college now. And I'm, I'm actually doing this. And then after, for a while afterwards, I kept kind of doing that like, okay, well, you know, I'm making this much and I have this title or, you know, and if I had gone to college, you know, where, where am I at with that?

[00:14:34] Chris: And I was kind of racing myself to your point. 

[00:14:36] Nathaniel: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, and that is funny because that never really goes away. You know, there's always that little part in the back of your head. It's like, well, if I'd had done it, would I be X amount further? you know, and trust me, I'm not saying anything is, is bad about where I am and not, not saying that at all, but yeah, I'm just human and you're always no wonder 

[00:14:56] Zoe: mm-hmm, , that's interesting.

[00:14:59] Zoe: I did go to college for the exact reasons you guys are saying, I went to college because I was it manager. And I was like, dunno what I'm doing. I need to go to college. Somebody else needs to validate. I know what I'm doing. I'll be honest with you. I had the same struggle and I continued to have the same struggle.

[00:15:15] Zoe: So getting that little piece of paper, I thought would be the turning point. And I'd be magically a knowing person. I don't feel that at all. 

[00:15:25] Nathaniel: Oh yeah. But knowing could take away what you earned. You know, that's the funny thing. It doesn't expire. 

[00:15:29] Zoe: That's true. 

[00:15:30] Nathaniel: You know, it's like you're cert'd for. You're knighted 

[00:15:33] Zoe: I'm knighted can call me lady.

[00:15:36] Zoe: Um, interesting. I was to see, um, we did a little bit of a, just a collection of, you know, we had a chat recently with OSINT so we did a bit, OSINT figure out, you know, who you are. And, um, one of the things was, you know, your husband and father, do you think that affected your career as I would hope positively, but you never know.

[00:15:57] Zoe: Or has there ever been times where you've seen people kind of look at you differently? 

[00:16:02] Nathaniel: So it, it definitely has affected my career because you know, my wife and I, we also started our family pretty early. So, you know, I just like, I gotta take jobs and make money. And it just, what happens that I was able to make money doing things that I like doing.

[00:16:16] Nathaniel: Right. I landed in a field that paid well at a time when those skills were in demand. So it was pretty neat. You know, everything kind of worked out that way. Thinking of them has always affected certain decisions I would make as well. Right. And this is maybe a little bit of the imposter syndrome kind of thing, mixed with anxiety mixed with being a government contractor.

[00:16:37] Nathaniel: My wife used to give me a lot of grief early on because I wouldn't buy a house. Right. You know, I never felt. Secure enough in my profession that we should take income and like buy a house. , you know, it's like, oh, you know, this thing I'm doing, you know, I'm on contracts that could run like two years, five years, they might last, they might not, you know, why would we do that to ourselves?

[00:17:02] Nathaniel: But she helped me get through that. You know, you know, she, she helped me kind of look at my history up at that point. And it's like, well, when has this not worked? You know, when, when have you been just, you know, without able to make a check and it's like, oh, well, never. It's like, so why would that change? Like, well, because, and then it's like, yeah, you're right.

[00:17:24] Nathaniel: Hopefully she won't listen to this and hear that I told her she was right. 

[00:17:28] Chris: she will. I'm sure she will. So it sounds like you learned to trust yourself a little bit in that. Right. And that's an interesting, right. That kind of freelance, lack of security, right? I think a lot of people choose full-time employment.

[00:17:38] Chris: Specifically for that reason. Right. Because they want to know that that next check is coming no matter what, whereas as a contractor, it's a little bit more on your own shoulders. 

[00:17:46] Nathaniel: Oh yeah. But it's tough to get that, that full time spot sometimes in, in this area. Right. So even though I'm an employee of a company, that company has me on a contract and you know, let's say that a contract employees, 50 people, it's got like a five year deal.

[00:18:02] Nathaniel: There's a, you know, every year it could be reevaluated. And so, yeah, that kind of plays into your psyche a little bit, but yeah, it's a weird thing in this area. There aren't a lot of folks who are like fully employed, unless you're like a real government person. 

[00:18:17] Zoe: Yeah, that point you made about changing your perspective for your career.

[00:18:22] Zoe: I noticed that as well. I, I recently became a mom and, uh, when I was looking for a job, when I was pregnant, it was the, well, actually I do care about how much I make and I fight a little bit more than I ever would've fought a bit for money, not because, you know, that's my only motivation, but because I now have a family, so I need to support them.

[00:18:42] Zoe: And it was almost like a I'm fighting for them, not myself. And it made it easier. Even though my baby was literally on board. it still, already helped. 

[00:18:51] Nathaniel: Oh yeah. I mean, you're, you're always gonna protect your kids. Right. You know, you're, you're always gonna look out for them and, and try to make decisions that work for them.

[00:18:58] Nathaniel: You know, it's like, Hey, how can I put myself in the best position? To offer them something, you know, and the older I get, the more I think about what would happen if I'm not around, you know, that that's something that my, my mom has encouraged me to consider. , you know, it's like, Hey, when you're raising those kids, you know, are they really ready?

[00:19:19] Nathaniel: If something were to happen to you? And so I think about that and it's like, okay. Yeah, let's make sure there's a, there's a nice little nest egg for 'em and, and things will be good. 

[00:19:27] Zoe: Nice. Yeah. I think that it surprised me. It definitely surprised me how much that affects your career itself. And I hope that means you kind of feel more confident cuz literally I obviously, I don't know everything about your career, but even just looking at the bits that you've told me are really impressive.

[00:19:44] Zoe: So coming from an outside point of view, I'm just like. I don't know how you could have imposter syndrome because you're so brilliant. Is there any advice for people that maybe situations that you've overcome because you know, you've figured out a way to realize that's that little voice that's really rubbish and shouldn't be speaking to you.

[00:20:03] Nathaniel: Yeah. I mean, just believe that you can fail up. It's probably it, but you know, it's a horrible joke. Remember, I'm a tech person. I don't get paid for comedy 

[00:20:16] Chris: well, but I think there's, I think there's reality there though. I mean, I, I know it's a joke, right. But I think there is some truth to this idea of being able to fail up, which is that there are times where there's something that I really, really wanted, whether it was something to do or, or whatever it might have been.

[00:20:30] Chris: And I either failed in that job failed to get that job or, or whatever it most might be. And then because of that, This other opportunity's opened up in front of me. And so I, I think, you know, there is this idea of like, you know, being able to kind of fail up and not in the bad way, but in this way of like sometimes learning what you can't do or what you aren't good at is just as good as is figuring out what you are good at.

[00:20:51] Chris: I dunno. 

[00:20:52] Nathaniel: Yeah. I mean, and don't be afraid to change. Um, oh, here's the one thing that kind of blew me away early in my career. Don't be afraid to ask for what you want. Right. Don't be afraid to talk to people and say, you know, I want this. Way way back in a day, I met some other people at like a happy hour or something, you know, it was kind of one of those company functions.

[00:21:14] Nathaniel: And I was talking to some other folks and said, yeah, you know, I wouldn't mind being a DBA, you know, one day, I mean, I was young. I didn't know and uh, you know, I didn't think anything of it a couple months go by and I get a call and like, Hey, we got an opening over here, you know, in this division. And it was wild.

[00:21:31] Nathaniel: It's like, oh crap. One, you heard me and two, you remembered me. So, uh, I was deeply flattered and got to try a new role. And that was kind of neat, you know, and it was a, a role that helped me really understand a lot more about applications in general and what you have to do for hardware to manage a, a database and, and, and that sort of thing.

[00:21:52] Nathaniel: But yeah, don't be afraid to ask people, you know, what you want. And a lot of us have anxiety issues. Maybe aren't the best in terms of being like extroverted, but there is something to it. Find those spaces where you can be comfortable and just talk to folks. 

[00:22:08] Chris: Yeah. I think whether you introvert or an extrovert, right.

[00:22:10] Chris: I mean, you know, people are a big part of what makes a career for sure. But speaking of learning something and taking that next step, I notice obviously that you moved from call it hardcore engineering. Right. Really being, you know, at that systems and network level. Into solution architecture roles. And I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what prompted that change, what that change felt like, how you accomplished that change and why, you know, just a little bit more about kind of making that, that kind of a career shift.

[00:22:37] Chris: Cause it really is a pretty big shift. You're still working on technology, but you're in a totally different role. 

[00:22:41] Nathaniel: Yeah. So this is one of those shifts that came because of the family. You know, when you're, you're doing hardcore engineering, You're often carrying the pager and you're waiting there overnight.

[00:22:54] Nathaniel: You know, you have data center moves and you're maybe sleeping at the data center or doing all kinds of crazy stuff. Right. And, uh, you know, it was just time to cut that back for the health and safety of my family. So, yeah, I, I took on a different role and it was neat because at the time I kind of viewed it like, um, like in hiphop terms where, uh, this was around the same time Jay-Z was retiring.

[00:23:17] Nathaniel: And so it was like, you know, by 30 my hands probably shouldn't be on a keyboard doing anything, but writing proposals to a certain degree, it is a game for the young, right. You know, in your, in your twenties, you can bang away your own code or whatever, like nonstop. And I just. I needed more sleep than I did in the past.

[00:23:38] Nathaniel: So I, I shifted gears. Here's a really funny thing. I was lucky enough to have so many different experiences over time that it felt like a natural evolution because I, I had worked deeply at the, the engineering level and the hands on level. I could see the threads that tied different components together, and I could say, oh, Hey, all right, we're gonna one of these in one of these in one of these.

[00:24:02] Nathaniel: And this is how we're gonna design it. And so, um, I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by a lot of really smart people who encouraged me and just got it done. 

[00:24:14] Zoe: Yeah. That point of, you know, allowing yourself to try different things, to get that diverse view. And I think the benefit there is also not just seeing what you like, but really importantly, seeing what you don't like.

[00:24:26] Zoe: I totally agree with you of, as my career's progressed, there's been things that I absolutely adored before. Whereas now I I'm happy to step back. I think that's a really important part of acknowledging because I think for a long time, for me personally, I don't know if it's same for you, but for me personally, before I acknowledge that I'm ready to step back from those areas, I felt even worse imposter syndrome because I wasn't doing as well in those areas.

[00:24:54] Zoe: If that makes sense. 

[00:24:55] Nathaniel: Yeah. Yeah, it does. So for instance, I have great respect for network admins. Like it's one of those things where I did it. , you know, I made some things go, but I was never as hardcore with it as a lot of folks are, you know, and I realized that thats, that is a, a really interesting discipline.

[00:25:17] Nathaniel: And you can go as far deep into it as you want. Right. I mean, that's a rabbit hole that does not stop. And it's crucial to everything that we do, right. If the packets don't move, you know, what are we doing here? Right. So, yeah, you know, I, I dabbled with lots of different tech and I did them at different levels of capability , but for me it was, uh, it got to a point where just seeing how they're all connected was more fun than going deep down any one path.

[00:25:45] Chris: Awesome. So it sounds like you've, uh, kind of built your career by, by trying lots of things in, in some ways. 

[00:25:51] Nathaniel: Yeah. And, and it's weird because. They all feel interconnected. Like it doesn't feel like there's a big shift from one to the other, because a lot of this stuff, you know, is, is just built on top of each other.

[00:26:02] Nathaniel: Okay. I'm playing at different parts of the stack or just shifting over left or right. And so that's kind of neat. Like for me, the big things that I've started thinking about lately is not so much trying to make a mark with the tech itself or in a specific field because, you know, Hey, I'm not really that guy.

[00:26:22] Nathaniel: But what I would like is to try to help the people in the field. Right. You know, I was one of those dudes carrying a pager, trying to deploy software on a Friday, cuz that's what we did or Saturday and you wake up Monday and you are hoping that everything is still working. Right. And you're praying that you don't have to, to roll back or anything like that.

[00:26:47] Nathaniel: You know, that's a lot of time that businesses waste and it's not, it's not helpful to the people doing it. I've witnessed a lot of people burnout doing that. And so that's what I would like to try and fix. 

[00:26:59] Chris: Awesome. Uh, Nate, this has been awesome talking to you today. We really appreciate you coming on the imposter syndrome network podcast and, uh, sharing your story.

[00:27:09] Chris: I know that you are on Twitter at Nathaniel underscore Avery mm-hmm and you've also got a really awesome blog. Uh, not your dad's it.com. Yeah. Is there anywhere else we should talk to you or you wanna tell us a little bit about your blog or the other projects that uh, folks should check out? 

[00:27:26] Nathaniel: Yeah. You know, it's funny, cuz I need to get back into the blogging.

[00:27:29] Nathaniel: Because now, you know, that you're kind of outted me. I gotta type up something yeah. I mean, Twitter is, is pretty much where to find me these days. I'm in Maryland grew up in the DC area. So you're gonna see some, some Washington commanders news, you know, posts from time to time . Uh, but, but I, I try to keep it mostly, uh, mostly tech, but you'll see some personal stuff too, but yeah, just reach out to me through Twitter.

[00:27:52] Nathaniel: Or LinkedIn I'm also in LinkedIn as Nathaniel Avery. 

[00:27:55] Chris: Awesome. Well, again, thanks for being here. Really appreciate you telling your story and hope to, uh, to see out there, uh, in the world, maybe at an event or something someday soon. 

[00:28:04] Nathaniel: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, let's get back to doing this stuff in person.

[00:28:07] Zoe: Definitely.