Enrico Signoretti

Transcript is automatically generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the imposter syndrome network podcast, where everyone belongs, especially those of you who don't think you do. My name is Chris gunman and I'm here with my co-host Zoe rose. This is the Enrico Signoretti episode. And I think you're in for a treat. 

[00:00:25] Chris: Enrico is the head of research product strategy as well as also I think still the senior data storage analyst at GigaOm. 

[00:00:36] Chris: Enrico. Great to have you here. 

[00:00:40] Enrico: Great to be here actually. Thank you for having me. 

[00:00:43] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, diving right in, obviously we actually both work together at GigaOm, but maybe it'd be worth starting off by talking a little bit about what a research analyst is and does. I mean, what, what does that role even mean?

[00:00:57] Chris: What, what's your day to day look like? 

[00:00:59] Enrico: So as you said, I have two roles at . One is, you know, still leading the, the storage team and the other one is, uh, head of, uh, product research. I was pulled in, in the second role because of, you know, some projects that I lead at the beginning. Of the journey. Of GigaOm's journey.

[00:01:17] Enrico: But anyways, so let's start with the IT analyst role. So my role is to understand what happens in the market and report, uh, these trends and these, uh, you know, happenings to users and vendors. So trying to connect the dots between, uh, facts that, uh, are happening. So new technology that is developed. How this technology will impact the future of, uh, users, how they can adopt it.

[00:01:46] Enrico: And, uh, finally try to look at the market landscape and analyze it to see which vendor is doing, uh, betters in terms of, you know, implementing this new technology, you know, what are they doing? Is it the right path for the users and so on? So actually I, I am the, in the middle between users and vendors, users need information, vendors need to understand if they are doing the right thing.

[00:02:15] Enrico: And, uh, by connecting users and vendors in the end, even if not directly, I am in the position to help both of them. 

[00:02:24] Chris: Yeah, that's interesting. And you know, to me, it has corollaries with product management inside of a company. Right. Which a lot of times product managers are the ones who are tying together, you know, the work that developers are doing or, or engineers are doing with the customers. How does the it analyst, I mean, obviously that's an external third party. How does that work together? And that ecosystem, is there kind of a push and pull there? Do you actually talk directly to product managers or is it all filtered through other folks or, or how does that work on the vendor?

[00:02:51] Enrico: So on the vendor side, I talk often with product managers and product marketing managers. And I mean, I, I don't see the same identical role between, you know, the product manager in telling to the company and the role of analyst because, uh, yes, the, the product managers as to connect the developers with the sales and potentially the end users.

[00:03:13] Enrico: But, uh, what we are trying to do is, uh, somehow influence this product manager. Okay. Say, uh, look, these users now have these kind of issues, these kind of challenges. And they're trying to find solutions. What are you doing in this space? You know, sometimes they already thought about it. They, they saw the same identical kind of needs and they can, uh, talk about something they are developing. Some other times they don't really have an idea what is happening. And our role is just to understand it and return to the user and say, look, there are 10 players playing this game. At this moment. There are three of them that are really advancing the development of these kind of features that will help you.

[00:03:57] Enrico: In some way others are, you know, so, and so, so if you're planning for your new projects to adopt a vendor instead of the other, that's the way to go. And then we can go so deeper consider that GigaOm is very technologically focused and most of our analysts are practitioners in the end. So we know technology very well. Most of the time. 

[00:04:21] Enrico: Most of our analyst also, uh, if I think about me, I mean, I started as an assembly programmer, but I, I work at most of my life in storage. And so I know the technology, I know how to implement it because I was a systems administrator actually. And then I work at, you know, in pre-sales I work it for startup to do product management.

[00:04:42] Enrico: So I covered several roles and, uh, more or less, you know, I, I can understand what these, uh, users need and how to translate these needs to something that is, uh, you know, uh, understandable for, you know, for others, including vendors. 

[00:05:00] Zoe: So it's interesting that you talk about, you know, you have that technical background, you have that experienced background, but that whole translation part, that, which is a key part of your role.

[00:05:10] Zoe: Um, what skill do you think benefits you the most there? Is it things like, or you have the technical background or is it the understanding, the people more? 

[00:05:20] Enrico: Uh, this is interesting. I think, uh, I had the, the chance to cover all these, you know, different roles. Okay. So I was a developer, I was a system administrator. Also I was a CEO for quite some time in a small, uh, a small system integrator. OK. So I saw the it from several, you know, different perspectives. And, uh, I, I have to be honest, this made what I am today. So I try to, to see every single problem from different angles, because sometimes you see, ah, this technology is not really good, but actually the implementation is what people need to, you know, tactically solve the problem.

[00:06:01] Enrico: And, you know, yes. I mean, I don't want to know too much about what's inside the box in this case. I know I need to solve the problem today. Common sense is, uh, is very useful in these cases. So, and, uh, I don't want to be taking too strong of a stance sometimes just because, you know, I have to understand the people in front of me.

[00:06:23] Enrico: So most of my work is listening more than, you know, advising or, or doing anything else. 

[00:06:30] Chris: That makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of roles should be more about listening than, than maybe they are. It's interesting. You talk about kind of the diversity of your background and how that has become a strength for you.

[00:06:39] Chris: I think it'd be interesting to rewind. I don't wanna date you too much, but I think you've been, you know, in technology since the nineties, at least, how did that originally happen? Like, you know, why technology and why storage, how did that kind of come to be for you? 

[00:06:52] Enrico: So why technology? Well, it started very, very early.

[00:06:55] Enrico: I mean, uh, I, I was the kind of small kid trying to understand how the radio of my grandparents was working. So I tried to dismantle the radio to see all the components. I was not able at that time to, you know, rebuild it, but actually, that was an experience. And from there, my dad came home. I was very young with a commander 64 that maybe many of you don't even know about.

[00:07:20] Enrico: And I tried to program my first games. So I, I had the computer, I didn't have the games I wanted to play. So I started copying line by line in basic. There were my magazines with the code printed. Printed code, not, not in a media that was possible to read. And I was there, you know, you can only think about the debugging and, and everything.

[00:07:44] Enrico: I mean, uh, and it was, you know, the game started with actual coding. And then I started to understand what I'm really doing. So from there, I started to understand, well, this is I can do different things. And, uh, because of the school that at the point I, I chose, I studied the microprocessors, how the, you know, computers work internally.

[00:08:07] Enrico: And my first job was, uh, was assembly programmer that became very quickly assembly stuff, very quickly, uh, C programmer. But, you know, for multiple reasons, I was the, the guy that again was the radio kid. At that point, I started doing system administration and because the companies I was working for was, uh, was already managing a lot of data for the time I started working in storage more and more storage.

[00:08:36] Enrico: And at the time Unix was, uh, was the, the big guy. And, uh, I learned Unix from the manuals. And it is not like today. I mean, Unix manuals were shelves and shelves of books at the time. And I was lucky because my employer at the time had an Apollo before HP, we are talking about, you know, like, uh, Almost 30 years ago, probably before HP, both Apollo acquired Apollo.

[00:09:07] Enrico: Uh, I had the chance to work on an Apollo system. So graphical system was stationed at the time and Silicon Graphics and all these kinds, Sun Microsystem. And then every new job that I took was, you know, big systems with a lot of storage, storing images working, uh, for, for, for some time I worked for a small system integrator and then the system integrator became a mine company.

[00:09:35] Enrico: Uh, we were, uh, building system for uh pre-press and, uh, so we were talking already about, uh, a lot of data. Well, the data that you were managing in the nineties. And that's from there. I mean, uh, it's storage all the way. 

[00:09:53] Zoe: I'm a slightly younger than possibly you are, um, would say, um, not that that's bad at all, but it's, um, it's really impressive.

[00:10:02] Zoe: Like hearing your journey is really impressive and I'm not gonna lie. I am slightly intimidated. You know, I I've worked in industry for, I don't know, probably if I were to count maybe around 13 years or somewhere around there now. Yeah. And from my perspective, it's like, I could never reach what you've reached, you know, I could never get to that point.

[00:10:24] Zoe: What are your thoughts on, I guess, a newer person coming into industry and seeing where you are and seeing how you got there and your journey and thinking maybe that, oh, while I'm too late. 

[00:10:35] Enrico: Well, maybe, maybe it. The country. I mean, I had a lot of opportunities and I was lucky because I was always in the right place at the right time.

[00:10:45] Enrico: With the right technology. I had a lot of passion and, uh, but again, you know, as I said, I had the opportunity to turn on an Apollo station. At that time, we were talking about a massive computer that nobody was using in our office. So it was a mistake from their point of view, for me was a huge opportunity.

[00:11:06] Enrico: But today you can learn everything. There are, you know, so many resources and it is so easy. You can have, I have on my desk now, a cluster of raspberry PIs. I mean, with that kind of cluster, you can learn everything. And, uh, maybe you, you, you don't get the performance or whatever, so you can't do anything spectacular.

[00:11:29] Enrico: But actually from a, from the point of view of the learning platform, you can do whatever you like. And there are information everywhere at that time it was difficult because even if we are, you know, pioneering, uh, uh, IT in general with the companies, with the friends, with everybody, I mean was way that wasn't the internet.

[00:11:50] Enrico: There was no internet. There was no YouTube for tutorials. There was no, uh, Stack Overflow. There was nothing. I mean, that's communities, Discord or whatever you are using today. So no today is way easier. I mean, actually the, the problem maybe it's the contrary, it's this abundance of information and choosing the right field.

[00:12:15] Enrico: But you can always, you know, jump to, to the next field. I mean, I started with data storage. I still really like data storage, but in the, in the last couple of years, I, I started digging more and more in, uh, in Kubernetes and, um, still infrastructure, but actually we have, uh, multiple reports on Kubernetes infrastructure. 

[00:12:38] Enrico: Um, moving to other parts of the infrastructure or moving to, you know, up in the stack. It's not difficult. I mean, it's just that you start, I have also a passion for microcontrollers. It's not that I am a, a developer anymore, but actually I can use, uh, micro Python and it's, it's like Python. I mean, the difference is minimal.

[00:13:01] Enrico: So potentially I understand, uh, a little bit more about how to use this, uh, microcontrollers. Now just because, you know, internet is full of projects, it's full of, uh, resources. So, no, I mean, it's easier today. 

[00:13:17] Zoe: Interesting. One thing I was thinking, as you were talking is over my career, I've made a lot of mistakes, a lot of mistakes, but I found that the mistakes that I've made actually helped me a lot to learn.

[00:13:29] Zoe: Is there any kind of changing experience that you can think of that actually this specific mistake or maybe these multiple mistakes has actually made you better at what you do? And without them, you wouldn't necessarily be where you are today. 

[00:13:42] Enrico: Well, there are, there are, let's say at least two types of mistakes, the mistakes that you are doing, uh, during, uh, your job.

[00:13:51] Enrico: I mean, day to day mistake, like delete everything. Okay. And on a, on a Friday afternoon, and you have to, you know, spend the whole weekend. Without the right backup and everything, trying to recover everything. Or there are, you know, uh, life mistakes, including, uh, choosing the wrong, uh, job. I think that deleting everything on a Friday afternoon makes you wiser.

[00:14:17] Enrico: So the next time you think twice you check twice, you know, your scripts and everything. Okay. That that's, that's something that will happen to everybody. And, uh, it's part of the, of the job. When it come to life mistakes, I mean, choosing the, the wrong, uh, the wrong job. I think a couple of times I did such a mistake, but really it was anyway an experience. 

[00:14:41] Enrico: At the end it's an enrichment. Anyway. I mean, you, you understand better how to deal with people. You understand better the kind of jobs that you don't really like, and you, you, you had a totally wrong expectation about, you know, the role, the things that you have to do in this job and then turns out it's not really that, but again, we, we work in IT.

[00:15:04] Enrico: There is very, very high demand of people in it. So if you make a mistake, you can always start searching for something new. 

[00:15:14] Zoe: Yeah, no, that's, that's a really good point. And I think as a manager, I tend to talk to people I'm working with, if I'm maybe I'm mentoring them or maybe I'm their manager or whatever. And I tend to say, you know, knowing where you want to be is actually really difficult, especially in the beginning it's really hard to know what, what you actually want to do if you don't have the experience even more so. 

[00:15:35] Zoe: I think I like that maybe taking the wrong job, as not necessarily a failure, but actually a learning experience. Um, cause I've also done that a couple times. I will say and it, uh, yeah, you definitely learn quite quickly. yes. 

[00:15:51] Zoe: I think, obviously we are talking about imposter syndrome and, uh, in general, in our kind of journey of understanding people here, um, is there ever been a time that you've really struggled with that and thinking, oh, I'm not good enough, or I won't actually meet this or, you know, is there been a time that you just really struggled with your confidence and how is it that you actually overcame that?

[00:16:13] Enrico: Well, I can say that every time there is something new to do. Yes. I mean, it, it happened all the. So, you know, you, you grow confident with what you know, and you think that, uh, what you know is, you know, you are good at it because people try over time to say, oh, you are good. So keep, keep up the good work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:16:34] Enrico: But actually then something happens and somebody feels, ah, because you're good at this. You could do also this one. And you say, okay, maybe I dunno, I never, you know, tried this and, uh, You have to think a little bit, but again, if you split the problem in small pieces, and then you start thinking about it sometimes at the very beginning, you think these are new challenges, big challenges. You are not good at it. 

[00:17:02] Enrico: You can start. And then honestly, I always work it in organization where people are good. So if I don't know something, I can always ask to others, especially now in GigaOm. GigaOM is growing like crazy. Uh, sometimes it's also difficult to keep up with, uh, you know, new names and, and everything, but, but actually there are so many analysts now, so many other people when I have adapt, I just ask and I answer.

[00:17:32] Enrico: So if you have in the right organization, it's not difficult. There are some organizations that are tougher than others, where people want to be, you know, always the first. And, uh, there is competition internally. And this is something that, for example, now in my team, I try to avoid at all costs. So collaboration wins hands down when it's possible.

[00:17:56] Chris: Yeah, that's definitely something that I've seen a number of times through my career, right. Is folks who hoard information or, or, or think that if, if they, if they keep information from other people, they'll be more valuable. And I think to your point, right: sharing information tends to, uh, make everyone better and actually make you more valuable than trying to hoard it.

[00:18:14] Enrico: Right? Yeah. I learned a lot of time ago that there is no way you will be successful by keeping everything for you. And also it's very difficult to grow as a team if you have a lot of, uh, single players and not, you know, uh, you don't play in the right way altogether. When you have a good team play, then, uh, you know, things happen magically and everybody covers for each other.

[00:18:42] Enrico: So in the end, I always try to make people that worked with me, shine. Because, you know, if they did some good work, I even removed my name from the report lately because I prefer to, you know, to have them like first argument, they, they did most of the work because, you know, I'm there helping them, mentoring them and, uh, building the report with them.

[00:19:07] Enrico: But actually they really do 70, 80% of the work. Maybe more sometimes there is no way that I will put my name on top. I want them, uh, you know, to be recognized, to be successful because at the end, it's the success of the team. 

[00:19:24] Chris: Yeah. And that's another really interesting or important fact, I think, and this is something that I think shifts, at least it did for me from kind of early career to, to later career is, you know, as you've done more things as you kind of build a bit of a personal brand, honestly, I think just as you build more confidence in yourself, it becomes easier to give credit away.

[00:19:43] Chris: And, and, and not just that, it becomes easier to give it away, but it also becomes less important to, to keep it. Now, not everyone learns that lesson. I. But definitely, you know, folks who are starting out really need their name out there on, on projects, on papers. They actually need that credit to be able to build their career and kind of build their reputation.

[00:20:03] Chris: Whereas those folks who are a little bit later stage, you know, maybe don't need that as much anymore. There's another thing that I've talked about with other people in kind of the privilege of you know, needing or not needing a big fancy title. And I think, you know, again, that kind of comes with seniority where you maybe stop caring about that, but the time you stop caring about it is when you don't have to care about it anymore.

[00:20:21] Chris: And so there's a little bit of a dynamic there that the people who care about it in some cases actually need to care about it. Right. It it's actually important to them and to their growth. 

[00:20:29] Enrico: Well, I consider that, you know, I started working with, uh, you know, in international vendors and clients in general, many years ago, they know me and, and I have a large network of connections now, and I'm not doing a I'm good or bad, but I actually, I'm trying to be as honest as possible with all these people. So they know me. And I think that in the moment we are able to grow as a team. They know anyway that, you know, we work together. So also these new analysts are more, you know, can be trusted because again, there is a flow of information and I think it's beneficial for everybody in the end.

[00:21:08] Enrico: So. For me that, you know, that that help them will help me in the future if I need it. And also for the vendors. In, in my specific job today is helpful because they have multiple contacts. So everything goes in parallel. They lack the flexibility, the agility of the team. So why not? 

[00:21:27] Zoe: Yeah. I mean, from kind of listening to your story, that one thing, I think the, the biggest thing that stands out to me is that trust, you know, trust that, you know, the advice you're giving is backed by knowledge, but also realistic.

[00:21:41] Zoe: Well, what's the expectation. What are the needs? And then also the trust in your team. Like I've had managers that I know that if I didn't make it obvious that I was the one that did something, they would take credit for it. So it's nice. I mean, it's disappointing in those, in those cases, those are wrong. I know that. 

[00:21:59] Zoe: But it's nice to hear the opposite side where you actively say, you know, I want to acknowledge that you did much of this work and you did a great job because I think actually from my perspective, that makes you a better tech as well, because you're not trying to be the superstar. You know, you're trying to build a good product or in this, you know, a good service and you're trying to improve the solution, whatever it is, and then build up your teammates so that your team gets bigger and better and stronger.

[00:22:28] Zoe: I think my takeaway here is trust is so critical to having a good job and a good career because you, you know, you have your trust to your clients. You have the trust of your teammates as well. I like that. 

[00:22:39] Enrico: Yeah. In general, I spent some time at the beginning. To select the right people. And if we work well together, then there is no reason to stop them to be successful and show, uh, to the rest of the company and the clients that they are, the ones that did the job.

[00:22:59] Enrico: And, um, so I, I think you have to spend more time at the beginning to, you know, to find the right people, to find people you can trust. And then you can start from there. It's helpful to be, you know, uh, to have a, let's say an experience because again, I did their job, so, uh, I can understand better what they do, how they do it, if they are, you know, overselling or not.

[00:23:26] Enrico: So that is very helpful. I think that the most human, uh, human aspects, it always takes some time to, to understand each other. To see if you can work together. Nobody's perfect. I am the, probably the first example here. 

[00:23:40] Enrico: But, but anyways, we are talking about the fact that if you can't pass these moments where, you know, there are issues that come up and you find, uh, a way to work together also when there are, you know, some internal CSS, communication, challenges, everything, and you try to understand why and explain things, be clear with the, with your team.

[00:24:02] Enrico: Then I think that, uh, it's easy. 

[00:24:04] Chris: Yeah, that resonates with me pretty deeply. And I think there's a couple aspects to it, right? One is that trust, but verify piece, which is by building your knowledge, you can spot when someone is, is BSing you right to, to, to call it out. And then also by building those relationships, right, you can build trust where you can gain information from other folks.

[00:24:24] Chris: And there's a little bit of just kind inherent trust. You know, what you were talking about in. The way the industry has evolved to provide so many resources out there that we can trust that, you know, there's probably good information out online, somewhere about almost any technology or, or technology challenge that we face, as you said, right there, you know, there's Pluralsite, there's Coursera, there's YouTube. I mean the lists can go on and on and on there's this blogs and, and all kinds of things out there, or, or events are coming back now. Again, super interesting. 

[00:24:51] Chris: One kind of unrelated question that I wanted to get in before we, we close out obviously, or maybe not obviously to everyone here, but, but you're Italian.

[00:24:59] Chris: You live in Italy. Uh, I think, you know, your career's kind of been built without having to leave Italy. And I wonder if that had any bearing, right? I mean, obviously a lot of the tech firms, as you talked about, right, are, are international or even us based tech firms. A lot of this technology has come out of US universities.

[00:25:16] Chris: I mean, obviously the world's not US centric, but technology seems to feel that way. Or maybe just to those of us in the US. And I wonder if being Italian has, you know, been a good or a bad thing or, or neutral in that. 

[00:25:27] Enrico: So you're correct. In my career, one of the things that we have done the idea was, okay, we were a small system integrator. Like 12 people, and we want to, you know, excel in what we were doing.

[00:25:40] Enrico: To do that, we thought, okay, we can't sell, you know, at that point was EMC or NetApp or whatever. We have to find something different, something that is really innovative. So we started to travel and we can started to, you know, uh, travel a lot to the US to find, you know, trade shows. So because when the technology arrives in Italy, everybody can access it.

[00:26:03] Enrico: But actually if you start contacting the startup that is in the US. Early stage then maybe you find something. So at that year it was 2006. I think we, we contacted Compellant. We started selling Compellant in Italy, then acquired by Dell later. But, but the idea was okay, let's go there. Let's understand what we can find there.

[00:26:26] Enrico: That is unique. That is, you know, that can make a difference. And, uh, so advanced that, you know, the competition will struggle to compete with us. And another thing that we did. Also because we were small and we didn't have, uh, resources was writing a blog. And, and again, it was 2006, 2007, when blog was, you know, growing.

[00:26:49] Enrico: And we, we were lucky. I mean, so we had this idea to be informative more than selling what we were doing. And people started sending me emails, saying, look, we are translating your blog with Google translate that at that time was really bad. So why don't you write in English? And I started writing in English and, uh, by doing so, uh, vendors started to contact me and say, ah, why don't you, you know, we love, we love what you write, why don't you give us a blog or a paper or something that, you know, goes in deep with this concept and everything. And I started doing that. 

[00:27:32] Enrico: This is, this is the very beginning of my role as a blogger analyst influencer. Now, I mean, I was lucky because nobody was, was writing in Italian. So my Italian blog was, you know, well read at that moment. And, and the other thing is writing in English, helping me to improve my presence in this industry.

[00:27:57] Enrico: And from there, you know, events and, uh, you know, how it works. I mean, you, you start, uh, having connections, you start taking, uh, jobs, consultancy, advising, other stuff, papers. And then I met, uh, GigaOm. 

[00:28:13] Chris: Yeah, fantastic. So it's interesting that I think being in potentially a somewhat smaller market or, or smaller niche with, you know, just Italian language in technology was kind of a, a boost, but then also you needed to reach across and kind of make that connection to the English speaking world and, and kind of branch out.

[00:28:29] Enrico: Yeah. I think that if you keep talking in your native language and not in English, it's out there and you, you can have a, a career in IT, but it's you know, there are some roles that, uh, are just not, uh, present in Italy. So if you want to make money with, uh, with some of the roles, like you can be an analyst for sure, but it's limited to Italian market, which is a limited market in the end.

[00:28:56] Enrico: So if you want to have a career in a, in a large analyst film, you have to talk English anyway. But also, if you want to work with a vendor, you have to talk in English. 

[00:29:05] Zoe: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Cuz I work, um, information security lead for obviously Europe and um, South Africa and Middle East. That's it.

[00:29:13] Zoe: But that is a really important point is, you know, whilst we are in international. The company language is English. So, you know, we've got all of these languages in it and we do translations here and there. But by default, you know, speaking English is quite key to our daily working environment to be able to work together and collaborate.

[00:29:31] Zoe: So that is a unfortunate case. I wish I wish I had the skill to learn all the languages and not make anybody learn at other ones. But, um, but that is a really, that is a good point. Mm. 

[00:29:42] Chris: What you say? I just feel lucky that I was born, uh, you know, in a place that my first language is the language that has kind of become the common denominator, at least in technology.

[00:29:50] Zoe: I just wish I wasn't as rubbish at learning other ones. 

[00:29:53] Chris: me too. Definitely a weakness of mine as well. I think we're gonna have to wrap it up there. That's about all the time we have this week. Enrico, this has been awesome. Really appreciate you being on. I think we've barely scratched the surface of, of your illustrious careers.

[00:30:05] Chris: We may have to have you back another time. Um, but just in case, is there any kinda. I don't know, parting wisdom advice you'd like to give out or, or even just maybe, you know, some, some current projects that folks can check out or, or places where they can contact you. 

[00:30:20] Enrico: So you can contact me on LinkedIn or, or Twitter, but it's very easy to find me because there are many Enrico Signoretti in this industry. So if you Google it, you find me and all the social media and everything. 

[00:30:34] Enrico: And, uh, the other thing is, you know, as probably already said it. Don't stop learning. I mean, that, that's the most important part in our job. If you remain excited and you want to learn more, there are other opportunities around the corner. Anyway. 

[00:30:50] Chris: Awesome. Thanks again, Enrico for being here. Uh, really appreciate you being on and, uh, that's it for, uh, this week's episode of the imposter syndrome network podcast. We'll be back, uh, with another guest next week. Thanks everyone. 

[00:31:05] Enrico: Thank you, 

[00:31:06] Zoe: Cheers.