Micheline Murphy

This transcript is machine generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello and welcome to the Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast where everyone belongs. We're all imposters here. My name is Chris Grundman and I'm here with my co-host and fellow imposter, Zoe Rose. 

[00:00:21] Zoe: Hey! 

[00:00:22] Chris: This is the Michelin Murphy episode and it's going to be a great show.

[00:00:26] Chris: So, hi Michelin, do you wanna introduce yourself a bit to the imposter syndrome network? 

[00:00:34] Micheline: Hello, imposters. I am Micheline Murphy and I feel like I should say I'm an imposter too. 

[00:00:41] Chris: one of us. Yeah, 

[00:00:42] Micheline: this is like a, this is like a, a meeting . I'm a consulting, uh, systems engineer at Worldwide Technology. I've been in the role for just shy of a year.

[00:00:52] Micheline: And, uh, previous to that, I was a data center engineer working on the opposite side of the fence. So implementation. So, uh, there's no imposters there. So as you can see, I jumped ship from that . Previous to that, I was a trial lawyer for just about, uh, 15, 16 years, almost two decades. There's a whole bunch of impostors in there, you know, that was a, that was an area.

[00:01:21] Micheline: That after a couple decades had kind of gotten stale for me. And so I was looking for something new and exciting and it ended up being, being, it, being the, the thing that I grabbed to my attention. 

[00:01:36] Chris: Definitely. I mean, obviously while we chat about careers and journeys in technology on, on the show, And, and we'll obviously get into that.

[00:01:43] Chris: I do wanna start by kind of addressing that previous life as a lawyer. I've never personally met a retired lawyer who's working in technology before. Um, I'm sure there's gotta be at least another one out there. Yeah. 

[00:01:54] Micheline: there's like two of us, I think. There's a couple of us. Yeah. . 

[00:01:59] Chris: But yeah, I mean, as you started to there, maybe you can tell us a little bit about that career shift.

[00:02:03] Chris: Why retire from being a lawyer? Maybe is one question, but then I think the more interesting one to this audience is, is then, you know, where did that inspiration to then start a career in technology come from? Or how did that all go down? Yeah, 

[00:02:18] Micheline: so, uh, I was at a point in my career where it was getting to be really obvious that my time was limited.

[00:02:28] Micheline: You know, there was nothing else that I knew I could learn. Basically, the law doesn't change very fast and. It was getting very stale and one day I was having conversations with my husband. Uh, he goes, well, you should look at this as an opportunity to do something different. And I asked him what he thought I should do because I had no idea, and I had really not even looked at the situation as an opportunity.

[00:02:54] Micheline: And he said to me, you should do what I do. I think you'd be really good at it. And I honestly had to look at him. And we've been, at that point in time, I think we'd been married almost 20 years. And he said, um, and, and I said, well, what do you do ? And uh, 

[00:03:08] Chris: I love it. 

[00:03:09] Micheline: You know, it was a, it was, it was this. It was, yeah, exactly.

[00:03:12] Micheline: It was the sort of thing like, you know, we've been married for so long, he's been in the industry for, you know, his entire career. He's very good. And I had no idea what he did. I'm like, does something computers, you know, . 

[00:03:27] Chris: I mean, that sounds like a pretty good relationship though, if you guys had so much to talk about.

[00:03:30] Chris: And he was, you know, and he, he's not bringing home work and being like, oh man, this is te you know, there's no, there's no like whining about his job or anything obviously going on, otherwise you would've known a little bit more about it. That sounds really healthy actually. 

[00:03:41] Micheline: Yeah, and I mean, now we're in the same industry together and you.

[00:03:46] Micheline: We're just like two geeks in the same pod. So like, you know, we make stupid tech jokes at each other. Now it's, I don't know if that's better or worse, , but, uh, you know, it is a thing. So, you know, it ended up being that for a little while he was able to kind of guide me in what I was learning and what I was looking at.

[00:04:09] Micheline: But, you know, at this point in time, I've gone off in one direction. He's gone off in a different direction. I actually went deep into an area that he left. So now my expertise in that area is stronger than his own expertise. So it ends up being, you know, interesting. So now it becomes more, uh, instead of kind of like a.

[00:04:33] Micheline: Student teacher kind of relationship in that, and then him forgetting that I, I actually haven't been around in the industry all that long and then getting upset with me. Why? Because I don't understand MPLS. It ends up being, uh, more of an equal. So it's easier for, for either of us to say to each other, well, I, I don't, I don't know much about that technology, and that's, I've found is something that you have to kind of embrace.

[00:05:00] Micheline: and that em embraces, uh, little bit scary sometimes, right? Because you don't wanna be that person that's, that, that's the first to admit in the room and I don't know what the hell that is. You know, some, can somebody, you know, bring me up to speed on that because. That takes a little bit of bravery. 

[00:05:21] Chris: It does.

[00:05:22] Chris: And and I've found that, well, two things, right? I mean, one, it definitely takes some bravery cuz it always feels like you're the only one who doesn't know what's going on. But I dunno about your experience, but for me, I find that it's almost a domino effect almost every time. Like the, the times when I finally say, uh, I don't actually understand what you're saying to.

[00:05:43] Chris: Usually there's, you know how, depending on the number of people in the room, there's usually some number two or three or four other folks who are like, yeah, we, we don't get it. We have no idea what's going on. And I've been on the other side of that too, where I'm sitting there like, what is happening? And then somebody else is like, Hey, I don't know what you're doing.

[00:05:57] Chris: And then I'm like, oh my God, thank God it's not just me. 

[00:06:00] Micheline: Yeah, it is. And I am fortunate to work in a culture right now that it really encourages team members to ask the question why? So I'm mentoring a young man right now. His boss told him and told me to keep him asking the question why? Which is a great corporate culture to work in because if you're ingraining in people to ask the question why, and to be, it's that it's op expected to ask questions.

[00:06:31] Micheline: It helps to buffer people feeling stupid that I, well, I gotta ask this. . Right. So it's, it's an interesting, I think it's an interesting way that the, the company that I'm at kind of embraces that imposter syndrome and tries to make the workplace a little bit more humane. , it's not a matter of, you will at some point in time know everything about everything, because that's just an, an impossible task, right?

[00:06:59] Micheline: No one is ever gonna know everything about everyth. But if you put enough people together who are encouraged to be curious and encouraged to communicate, encouraged to work together, maybe you can build a team that has the answers. 

[00:07:16] Zoe: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. I mean, for me, I, I would agree with that.

[00:07:19] Zoe: I, there has been many situations where I'm like, I don't know what people are talking about. And I feel like absolutely rubbish. And then as, as you said Chris, sometimes somebody says, oh, I don't understand. And I'm like, oh, thank goodness. But I will say, As I've gotten more senior, I've felt more comfortable admitting when I don't know, and it's almost like in the beginning, I had to credential so much.

[00:07:41] Zoe: I had to, I couldn't admit, I didn't know because then I wasn't taken seriously. But I think partially it's where I'm working and partially it's like the culture, but partially it's. Now that I'm more senior in the industry, it's been a bit easier because I don't have to do that credentialing. And if somebody doesn't take me seriously, I know that's on them.

[00:08:05] Zoe: Versus in the beginning, I was absolutely terrified. I think one thing that I would find interesting is obviously you started as a, as a lawyer and then you left that and you joined the technology career. My first question is, what was your first role in, uh, like first IT job and how did you approach going from probably being a respected lawyer to essentially starting over?

[00:08:31] Micheline: Yeah, it, it was, it's, it was an exactly, I was to start over, the first role that somebody offered to pay me money for was to write technical articles, and I had been actually really active on the Cisco Learning Network. So like as I started out, I was that, you know, Hey, I'm just gonna stick my hand up because I don't understand this.

[00:08:57] Micheline: And I, you know, I started out, could someone please explain the difference between a switch and a router to me? You know, that sort those sorts of. Really basic questions. And then my questions got to be like, could someone please explain, you know, the, the difference between, uh, type five and type seven LSAs and OSPF, you know, and then eventually I got to the point where I understood the material enough that when, when the next person asked the, what was the difference between type five and type seven, LSA in OSPF.

[00:09:30] Micheline: That was an answer I could give. And eventually I got to the point where I'm kind of looking at technology that's, that interests me and I, I, I kind of gravitated toward aci and so I ended up writing a series of. Articles for the Cisco learning that were completely gratis , just because I have kind of nothing better to do, right?

[00:09:57] Micheline: I'm gonna write these articles and 12 articles later, somebody noticed and said, Hey, can you write me an article? And I'm like, someone's. Pay meter, right? Sure, yeah. I love it. . And so my very first role was this really piecemeal kind of, okay, could you, you know, could you produce some content for, we're gonna roll out a new website.

[00:10:22] Micheline: And you know, and then technology, somebody rolls out a new website like every other day, so you know, they need content. So that was my kind of first role. And of course what ended up happening is, you know, Now you Google my name and all of these technical articles come up. Most of them are about ACI I.

[00:10:41] Micheline: And eventually somebody said, well, I need an ACI engineer . And by the time I was interviewing for what ended up being my first full-time role, the hiring manager's like, well, I've read your material on the internet already, and so we don't need to talk about your technical e. So the, let's, let's talk about how you're gonna fit into my team.

[00:11:05] Micheline: And I'm like, cool. So, you know, it was a huge shot in the arm because, you know, going into the interview for your very first technical role, I mean, I went in like hugely nervous that I wasn't gonna have the technical chops because I didn't have anything on my resume. So, you know, I had literally like a little.

[00:11:31] Micheline: Not even little. I mean it was, I think it was like several pages of cues that if he talks about this, be sure to mention this project. If he talks about this, be sure to mention you did this. If he talks about this, be sure to mention a lawyer coming out. Well, not that, not just that, but I was like convinced that I, you know, I was like the underdog in, in terms of technical expertise because.

[00:11:55] Micheline: You know, I'd never, nobody had ever paid me to do it before , and it ended up being that I had done all this preparation and he starts at the Intervi view by just saying, let's just talk about you for a little bit. I've read your articles. We don't need to talk about the technology, the technical expertise.

[00:12:11] Micheline: I don't expect you'll need to go through a, the technical interviews. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. You want to talk about me? Wait, I haven't prepared for that . 

[00:12:22] Chris: That's the one thing I don't have, uh, yeah. Notes on. 

[00:12:24] Micheline: Yeah, exactly. Whole new other. Hold on just a second. Let me just find a piece of paper.

[00:12:33] Micheline: So, uh, yeah. Uh, so that was kind of like my beginning and then they hired me and then the pandemic happened. So it ended up being that, you know, all of this conversation about, you know, how do we, how do you fit into. The team structure, well, the team was national anyway as an overlay, so like we were all.

[00:12:54] Micheline: You know, basically a bunch of geeks sitting behind Microsoft teams and, you know, IMing at each other. . So, 

[00:13:02] Chris: so is that the job that you have now? The, that one that you moved into? No. Okay. There's been another one since then. Alright. 

[00:13:08] Micheline: The role I'm in right now is my second role in I full-time role in it. So, okay.

[00:13:13] Micheline: But, you know, I joined a group of really, really, really, really talented engineers. I felt like the littlest fish in the pond and you know, I feel like I can hold my own right, but it gives you like a, in, in terms of ACI like perspective now gives me the viewpoint of like the rest of the world in terms of like what my expertise is.

[00:13:38] Micheline: But when I started in that team and I was working with these really talented people who had this really. Well of knowledge. You feel really small and you feel really, you know, uncomfortable. Like these guys are so smart and they know so much and they have so much expertise. You know, how could I possibly, it's like looking through warped glass, you don't get the right sense of what your level of expertise is.

[00:14:05] Micheline: Because you're looking at such a skewed margin. Yeah. 

[00:14:09] Zoe: I do have a question on that. Was that your motivation, because I see that you have quite a few, um, certifications. Mm-hmm. , was that slightly your motivation there

[00:14:18] Micheline: to get a job? . 

[00:14:19] Zoe: Oh, to get a job. Oh, okay. 

[00:14:21] Micheline: Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I got all those certifications to get the job.

[00:14:26] Micheline: Oh, okay. And, and I was like, okay, well I'm gonna just get the certs. I figured that I probably needed like an NP or higher and I might need more than one NP or higher in order to be able to get a job. 

[00:14:37] Zoe: And you have what? Four now? 

[00:14:38] Micheline: All right, now I have four.

[00:14:43] Zoe: So, uh, a bit, uh, quite aggressive. I would say. I have none , 

[00:14:49] Micheline: but you know. It is a field where it may not make, make a difference, right? I've met people in the industry who are like enormously expert in their area, like huge subject matter experts, and they don't have a single certification or they don't have anything active, you know?

[00:15:09] Micheline: And then I've met people who have had a ton of certs and they're really good at taking tests. What I always tell people is that those certs are great. I don't discourage people from going after a search. I, I tell 'em, I always used it as that's how you open the door. That's how you get to start the conversation.

[00:15:28] Micheline: That gives you a seat at the table, and once you sit down at the table, the rest is up to you. So I always viewed my certs as just that, you know, kind of an invitation to come and come and talk. 

[00:15:40] Chris: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think I've done the same thing where, you know, for me it was the learning to get to the cert is what was really valuable.

[00:15:47] Chris: I mean, obviously having the cert was great, especially early on. It felt really nice to have that validated. But I have since let almost everything expire because it's the knowledge that really matters. Not, not the, not for me anyway. Right. 

[00:15:59] Chris: So, I, I wanna roll back a little bit or, or maybe jump forward. I don't know.

[00:16:02] Chris: You mentioned that, you know, sitting in this team full of experts, your first role in technology really full-time, and it was a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit like looking through warped glass. So I want to talk about another subject that is a little uncomfortable and maybe like looking through warped glass.

[00:16:18] Chris: Which is covid and specifically long covid. And I, I understand that you may have something to tell us about, you know, how to feel confident when you're not at your best. 

[00:16:29] Micheline: Oh yeah. So a little story. I started my new role, the role that I'm in right now, I started it in at the end of last year. And I told the hiring manager, I'm like, look, I have some vacation.

[00:16:44] Micheline: I'm gonna take it the, in December, I love to go skiing. So every year I take a couple weeks in December I go skiing and I'm like, it's coming up. I am happy to start in January after my vacation is done, or I can start at the beginning of December. It's totally up to you. What do you want? And I told him like, but I'm gonna take this vacation

[00:17:07] Micheline: So he's like, let's get you started sooner rather than later. And I'm like, okay. So I get started, we're still, you know, it's was the end of December last year, so we're still all remote. So I did like two weeks of onboarding and then I go on vacation and I get covid on. So, which was miserable. Yeah.

[00:17:26] Micheline: Everybody got covid for Christmas in 2021. It was awful. I came back, you know, I came back and I had to tell my boss, I'm like, I'm really sick. I need to take some time off to, you know, get unsick. And, uh, he's like, no problem. Super great boss. And then shortly thereafter I got, um, long covid and I'm, to this day, and it's been like nine months now, or almost a year now, still struggling with the symptoms of long covid.

[00:17:56] Chris: Oh wow. I mean, maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you're dealing with that. I mean, cuz I, you know, obviously as someone who was a trial lawyer who is working in technology, all of us, you know, really kind of work with our minds and, and, and probably draw a lot of confidence from that and having it work the way you expect it to.

[00:18:11] Chris: So that's gotta be a little bit scary. 

[00:18:13] Micheline: It is a lot scary because, You know, in terms of the science, there's, there's nothing set right now as to, you know, what is causing it, what's gonna happen to you for some time. The medical community wasn't even sure if it was actually a thing, so I'm reasonably certain, you know, that doubt, those doubting Thomas's have been convinced.

[00:18:38] Micheline: But you know, the fact that long Covid plays out in so many different. Symptomologies makes it particularly challenging to address. So for me, I am very lucky that I don't have a ton of brain fog. I, I seldom have it. I, I've had it a few times. It's really scary. Like the times I've had it, I like walk, I'd be walking down the street with my dog and I'd be, I'd look around, I'm like, I don't, I don't know where we are.

[00:19:04] Micheline: Yeah. So I feel very fortunate that I don't have to deal with that. I get chronic fatigue, so. I've had to really be structured about my days and making sure I, I, I schedule in the middle of my day arrest period, which makes going back to work a little difficult. uh, you know, we keep jokingly asking our boss to, you know, structure a, a nap room in our facility, and I'm like, I, I'm not joking!

[00:19:39] Micheline: But you know, when you don't feel good and you don't have the, I don't wanna say it's mental fortitude, but I think it's the skills to be able to divorce what you're feeling physically from what you're feeling mentally. It can be a real challenge to just get on with your regular day and, uh, you know, just, just to.

[00:20:05] Micheline: Maintain a positive attitude. When you are, you look back on, you know, the life that you used to have before you were sick and what you, what you're capable of doing now, I mean, it, it's really easy to slip into and say, oh, you know, this is, you know, not who I was and, oh, I feel terrible because it's, you know, not what I'm used to being able to do.

[00:20:31] Micheline: And it's hard to project confidence or competence when all you wanna do is just crawl in a hole and take a nap, . And so it's a struggle. And I like to say for myself, it was the ability to develop skills that helped me to kind of like divorce. Okay? I feel crappy today. Or I feel really low energy today. I just need to make sure I, my husband, my strength appropriately according to what I've got on my calendar and not get into, oh, and I feel crappy today.

[00:21:13] Micheline: Today's gonna be really awful and you know, nothing is gonna go right And, you know, kind of tease those two thought processes apart from each other. It's a challenge. And you know, I have good days that I have bad. 

[00:21:30] Zoe: But I think the important part is the measuring over time. Um, I talked to a dietician for children and they talked about how you, because I'm always worried that my daughter's not eating enough or not, you know, normal mom stuff.

[00:21:44] Zoe: But, um, they said don't measure it by the day. Measure it by the week. And I remember when they said that to me, I was like, that's kind of how I work. You know, don't measure my, not my eating, but my capability of the day, measure my capability over the. And after I started thinking about that, obviously not to the same degree as what you're going through, but um, I started my role eight months pregnant.

[00:22:07] Zoe: And it was exhausting. It was so exhausting. And I know people talk about the mom brain and the pregnancy brain, but I never realized how much I felt like I was walking through a cloud. Until a couple months ago where I feel like it started to ease up and my daughter is almost two now. So it's, it's like being able to work when you're not at your best, not just is impacting your capability.

[00:22:31] Zoe: Yes. But it also impacts your ability to measure success and the ability to see that you're doing a good job. And I know, luckily, when it comes to being pregnant most places, Okay. Where I work, um, there is protections in place, but I can't imagine how stressful it would be when things like, uh, long covid, as you said, it's not fully understood, and therefore is the protections in place to help people that are struggling with that, that maybe aren't at their best.

[00:23:00] Zoe: So it's a, it's a concerning topic, I think, for a of people. 

[00:23:03] Micheline: I think it's really interesting to contrast. So, you know, Elon Musk was on the news yet again about his Twitter. I don't even know, know what to call it, right? Boondoggle, I'm gonna call it a boondoggle. His, his Twitter boondoggle. And you know, the, the latest in the Twitter boondoggle is that he has told, he's made this announcement that, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna be.

[00:23:27] Micheline: Focusing on the engineering and he's going to be expecting, you know, hardcore performance and exceptional performance is going to be the passing grade. Now, you know, let's be like straight up honest. That kind of toxicity is the thing, and I don't wanna say it's prevalent or it's the norm or anything like that in the tech industry.

[00:23:53] Micheline: You know, there are quite a few tech companies that have really embraced, uh, you know, sustainable and more balanced, you know, work environments, but that kind of really toxic, you need to give your last ounce to the, the tech company. It's still a thing. And that's really the opposite end of the spectrum of, you know what I.

[00:24:22] Micheline: I'm searching for, I'm kind of weird because I'm a, a young engineer, right? Most of my peers are maybe a good 15, 20 years younger than I am, but this is my third career, and so I don't have the time or the energy or the patience to put up with that kind of silliness anymore. You know, I've been known to like call out people for like, oh my God, she, she just said that like right in a meeting and I'm like, I don't have the time to deal with this silliness anymore.

[00:24:55] Micheline: I'm not gonna put up with it anymore if you just don't like me calling it out, you know? Then maybe we have a bigger problem to talk about then what I just called you out for. But yeah, how do you. You know, bring all of those different threads to play. So like, you know, as a young person, if I was working at Twitter, You know, if I was just starting out in my career and I was at Twitter, and then this announcement from the new owner came down that we all had to be exceptional or we were gonna lose our jobs, would I have been scared enough as a, a younger person to say, okay, I, I, I am, I'm going to, I am gonna make that sacrifice and I'm gonna give him my last ounce, even though that's outrageous for him to ask for it.

[00:25:42] Micheline: Older me says, go "F" yourself, . You know, I, I would've walked, I would've liked, give me my three months and I won't let the door hit my ass on the way out. Younger me might've stayed and younger me as a lawyer stayed in some pretty toxic work environments because, I don't know, it was younger me and I, I didn't know better, or I didn't, didn't think there was better.

[00:26:09] Micheline: I don't know why I stayed. Is it a time right to be able to say to folks that they. Even if they're starting out in their careers, look for a sustainable work environment. I think that people are entitled to have that, and I would like the world to be that they could demand that and not suffer negative consequences for demanding what I think ought to be provided to them.

[00:26:36] Micheline: But older me is like, don't be foolish. That's not the case. In most places or even every, you know, so that's really a calculus that people have to, to sit down for themselves and decide. And that's a really hard one. 

[00:26:50] Chris: It is, it is for sure. I think that conversation around that's definitely seems to be changing.

[00:26:55] Chris: So I think that's, you know, probably good news. I think as much as. Some of the, you know, gig work gets a bad rap for being exploitative. I think it actually provides a counterbalance to the exploitative full-time jobs or part-time jobs that are out there. So hopefully we're on a better track.

[00:27:11] Chris: Unfortunately, we are running out of time for today, so I feel like that's a little abrupt. But, but we're gonna jump into the, the end here. Michelin, thank you for being here and for sharing your story with the Imposter syndrome Network. I think this was really valuable and, and, and I think people are gonna get a lot out of this conversation.

[00:27:26] Chris: As always, thank you to all the imposters out there listening. We appreciate you. Thanks for spending your time and attention with us. We know it is valuable. Please feel free to subscribe so you can catch us, uh, every Tuesday. And don't forget that we have a LinkedIn group where you can give and get career advice as well.

[00:27:42] Chris: But Michelin, one last thing before we go. I wonder, you know, being someone who's changed careers a couple of times and, and has successfully done it again here into technology, is there any pieces of advice or, or wisdom you can share with others who. Be out there wanting to get into technology or maybe wanting to get outta technology, but they want that career change.

[00:28:00] Chris: Those can be really scary things to face down. So I wonder if you, if there's any, any wisdom you can share with us on approaching and dealing with, uh, like a career change. 

[00:28:09] Micheline: Do it. Commit. If that's where your passion is and that's the way you decide you wanna go, commit to it and just go do it and follow your passion.

[00:28:21] Micheline: That's what I gotta say. It's the same thing that, that my ski instructors tell me when I have to go ski about black diamond. It's, there's no halfway go commit . 

[00:28:32] Chris: Full commit. I like it. Just do it. 

[00:28:33] Micheline: Full commit. Yep, just do it. 

[00:28:35] Chris: That's great. You have any current projects that you wanna make sure the Imposter Syndrome Network knows about?

[00:28:39] Chris: I know you're still doing some writing. I think maybe with, um, the women in networking stuff on, on Cisco's blogger. I don't know anything that, uh, that's out there that you wanna point fo folks towards. 

[00:28:48] Micheline: Uh, let's see. Oh, my latest article appeared on the worldwide technology platform, so it's about a very brand new startup company called Graphient.

[00:29:00] Micheline: And if you go to wwt.com and you search for Graphient, you'll find my latest article. So I continue to write, uh, I continue to write about technology and I still continue to enjoy it. So two bits about graph. It's a. It's an offering of network as a service to provide fully curated, secure, fast, and simple WAN services.

[00:29:25] Chris: Wow. Sounds interesting. We'll definitely, we'll, we'll get that link from you and put it in the show notes cuz I wanna read that article and, and check them out. If folks wanna reach out, can they, is there, is there a good place to folks to reach out to you if they want to talk to you about any of this or something else?

[00:29:38] Chris: How can I find you? 

[00:29:39] Micheline: As long as the platform's still alive, you can reach me at at Missy Fish Murphy on Twitter. 

[00:29:45] Chris: Fantastic. We'll be back next week.