The Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast

Sebastian Paul Avarvarei

March 14, 2023 Chris & Zoë Season 1 Episode 33
The Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast
Sebastian Paul Avarvarei
Show Notes Transcript

Our guest today is Sebastian Paul Avarverai, EMEA Security Manager at Canon.

Sebastian shares with us what a common day looks like for him and we will learn firsthand what it is like to work alongside our very own Zoe Rose.

We explore the importance of culture and language in a good work ambiance, as well as why communication is participatory and you’re responsible for what the recipient hears rather than what you say.

We will talk about the importance of getting out of our own way, how we do not lose anything by changing our minds, and why security is something that everyone can do, it isn’t a magical thing.

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Sometimes we tend to forget that security is not about security.
Security is about protecting the business or protecting the organization that you're part of. Protecting the people all around you.
It's not it is not a goal in itself.
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Sebastian's Links:

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Make it a great day.

Transcript created by machines, mistakes and all:

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello and welcome to the Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't. My name is Chris Grundman and I'm here with my absolutely amazing co-host, Zoe Rose. Hello. This is the Sebastian Paul Avarvarei episode, and I think you're going to love it. Sebastian is a security leader with over 20 years of experience in it and is interested in all things security, security governance, and AppSec.

[00:00:36] Chris: Hi Sebastian. Would you like to introduce yourself a little bit further to the imposter syndrome network? 

[00:00:41] Sebastian: Hi, nice being here. And yeah, it's been quite , quite an entry for me in the information security. I wouldn't actually even know where, where to start. There was kind of a gradual slip in from it into, into security.

[00:00:53] Sebastian: Even how I end up in, uh, in it is a bit of, uh, string of coincidences, uh, ending up with me moving when I was, uh, just 14 to a different city because that's where I could find the only high school that was teaching, uh, computer science. Yeah. And, uh, and over time keep, uh, doing, uh, one thing or the other. First I started in, uh, sort of development.

[00:01:13] Sebastian: Then I started to look at, hmm, how could I create this, uh, Java client for this application? Hmm. Why is this repeatable string with the password, uh, coming through when I'm, uh, trying to, to understand the communication protocol? And hmm, I wonder how can that be, um, uh, misused And, uh, yeah. Then, uh, later, uh, another company where I was working.

[00:01:34] Sebastian: Kept, uh, asking the security team every day 10,000 questions until they said, well, how about we make it official and just join our team for, uh, formally. And, uh, yeah, been, been working, um, both on the consulting side and the internal companies had a chance to, to see a lot of companies from the consulting perspective and also internally, which makes it easy when you tell, um, uh, stories because it's hard for people to place in, which of the companies did that actually happen?

[00:02:00] Sebastian: So that , that definitely helps with the, with the talks and, um, and podcasts. Yeah. Current. Currently, I'm, uh, working as, um, a security manager, uh, for, um, Canon EMEA. Yeah, I have a really amazing team, uh, that helps me to, to shine and, uh, yeah, it's something that I never thought that I would end up doing when I started my, my career as it's always going to be technical.

[00:02:22] Sebastian: I'm always going to be a tech. Even 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, no, I, I want to keep to the technical side, but nowadays I take so much joy from managing a demon, yet it, it has its headaches and, uh, there are ups and downs. I never in a million year would I have expected it to be as fun as, as it is, and that I would take so much energy from it.

[00:02:46] Chris: That's awesome. Well, we'll definitely dive into a lot of that there. There's, there's quite a few things to unpack and I think especially that idea of kind of, you know, I think for a lot of us who start out as individual contributors that jump into management, sometimes it's disastrous. Always is terrifying.

[00:02:59] Chris: It's really cool to hear that it's been so awesome for you. Knowing that, and then you say that you work for security Canon in emea, and that sounds eerily familiar to what Zoe does. So I'm just gonna put you on the spot right away here and ask you what it's like to work with Zoe. Don't worry, she's not listening.

[00:03:18] Sebastian: Okay. So let's, uh, mute her and her speaker. No, it, no, it's, uh, it's really great and, uh, it's one, and I'm absolutely serious about it. It's one of the people in, uh, in my team that really makes, makes us, uh, shine. And that, and that's the thing, a security team is the people. A[00:00:00] Chris: Hello and welcome to the Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't. My name is Chris Grundman and I'm here with my absolutely amazing co-host, Zoe Rose. Hello. This is the Sebastian Paul Avarvarei episode, and I think you're going to love it. Sebastian is a security leader with over 20 years of experience in it and is interested in all things security, security governance, and AppSec.

[00:00:36] Chris: Hi Sebastian. Would you like to introduce yourself a little bit further to the imposter syndrome network? 

[00:00:41] Sebastian: Hi, nice being here. And yeah, it's been quite , quite an entry for me in the information security. I wouldn't actually even know where, where to start. There was kind of a gradual slip in from it into, into security.

[00:00:53] Sebastian: Even how I end up in, uh, in it is a bit of, uh, string of coincidences, uh, ending up with me moving when I was, uh, just 14 to a different city because that's where I could find the only high school that was teaching, uh, computer science. Yeah. And, uh, and over time keep, uh, doing, uh, one thing or the other. First I started in, uh, sort of development.

[00:01:13] Sebastian: Then I started to look at, hmm, how could I create this, uh, Java client for this application? Hmm. Why is this repeatable string with the password, uh, coming through when I'm, uh, trying to, to understand the communication protocol? And hmm, I wonder how can that be, um, uh, misused And, uh, yeah. Then, uh, later, uh, another company where I was working.

[00:01:34] Sebastian: Kept, uh, asking the security team every day 10,000 questions until they said, well, how about we make it official and just join our team for, uh, formally. And, uh, yeah, been, been working, um, both on the consulting side and the internal companies had a chance to, to see a lot of companies from the consulting perspective and also internally, which makes it easy when you tell, um, uh, stories because it's hard for people to place in, which of the companies did that actually happen?

[00:02:00] Sebastian: So that , that definitely helps with the, with the talks and, um, and podcasts. Yeah. Current. Currently, I'm, uh, working as, um, a security manager, uh, for, um, Canon EMEA. Yeah, I have a really amazing team, uh, that helps me to, to shine and, uh, yeah, it's something that I never thought that I would end up doing when I started my, my career as it's always going to be technical.

[00:02:22] Sebastian: I'm always going to be a tech. Even 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, no, I, I want to keep to the technical side, but nowadays I take so much joy from managing a demon, yet it, it has its headaches and, uh, there are ups and downs. I never in a million year would I have expected it to be as fun as, as it is, and that I would take so much energy from it.

[00:02:46] Chris: That's awesome. Well, we'll definitely dive into a lot of that there. There's, there's quite a few things to unpack and I think especially that idea of kind of, you know, I think for a lot of us who start out as individual contributors that jump into management, sometimes it's disastrous. Always is terrifying.

[00:02:59] Chris: It's really cool to hear that it's been so awesome for you. Knowing that, and then you say that you work for security Canon in emea, and that sounds eerily familiar to what Zoe does. So I'm just gonna put you on the spot right away here and ask you what it's like to work with Zoe. Don't worry, she's not listening.

[00:03:18] Sebastian: Okay. So let's, uh, mute her and her speaker. No, it, no, it's, uh, it's really great and, uh, it's one, and I'm absolutely serious about it. It's one of the people in, uh, in my team that really makes, makes us, uh, shine. And that, and that's the thing, a security team is the people. And, uh, of course it does help, uh, that we have somebody in the team that brings a lot of, uh, cool stickers and, uh, she's a very well known, uh, person in the industry and brings all kind of, uh, new information.

[00:03:47] Sebastian: Yeah, it's, it's absolutely lovely working with her. 

[00:03:50] Chris: Awesome. I have found the same thing to be true, although we have a much easier job together of just interviewing amazing people. So, 

[00:03:57] Sebastian: I I, sorry, I didn't say it's easy. Ah, . 

[00:04:01] Zoe: However, I would like to highlight from your career, you even told us at one point you annoyed people into just making you part of their team.

[00:04:09] Zoe: So I feel like both of us have that skillset. 

[00:04:13] Sebastian: I think it's gonna prerequisite, right? 

[00:04:14] Zoe: Fair enough, fair enough. Well, one point that Chris mentioned during your introduction is you're interested in all the things, security, security, governance, and AppSec. What do you define as all the things security?

[00:04:26] Sebastian: If you look nowadays, security has so many, so many components.

[00:04:30] Sebastian: There is no single patterns in the security. There is no, and also there's no chance to say, I'm going to master all the domains in, um, in security. And you, you have to, you have. Test a little bit of, of everything. So you have, um, uh, a good understanding of, of the big picture. And this is where it helped me to have different, different roles in different companies and even working in, um, the internal audit at some point, doing security audits.

[00:04:54] Sebastian: And by the way, if you want to learn how to write reports, talk with your, uh, internal audit team. It's an advice I I always give. But yeah, all things security, everything from even physical security lock, lock picking and understanding the, those, uh, those principles to understanding what makes an application secure.

[00:05:11] Sebastian: How do you secure a networks understanding the various, um, security governance frameworks. Everything contributes and everything helps. And one thing that I was doing in one of the, um, one of the previous roles, Uh, to get more buy-in into security from, from other managers. We would have be having this, uh, management events.

[00:05:30] Sebastian: Have a nice, uh, lunch together and I'm just always carry with me the, uh, the bag with the, with the lock picks and the, a few easy, simple, uh, locks and I can teach you in three minutes to pick this slot. It's amazing how many conversations I was opening about security with, uh, with those people after they realized.

[00:05:50] Sebastian: Right. I'm, I'm a financial director. I'm, I'm the CFO, and I can pick this lock. That means, okay. So it's, it's a skill that everybody can learn. It's not some something magical. and then that just draws off. So finding all those, all those details and all those things that you can use as discussion openers about, um, security, that that's a, that's a good skill to have.

[00:06:12] Zoe: We just interviewed Dave Kennedy and that was the point I made to him. Uh, we didn't put in the recording, but um, my comment of how much I used the social engineering toolkit, uh, cuz he created that and how I use that to start those conversations cuz it's so bloody easy and it's demystifying that security isn't this mystic... You know, unicorn thing. It's actually quite easy. Or well , let's say, it's not easy, but it's easy to get around sometimes because it's usually not, uh, done properly. . 

[00:06:44] Sebastian: Yeah, there, there's a method to the job, uh, progression. No, but seriously that, that's a point that I also made. Um, uh, when I give, gave the talk on the seven habits of, um, effective security leaders.

[00:06:55] Sebastian: Actually the main ti title was Security is Here to Help. It's a security conference of the audience who was mainly technical people and I was explaining. The management skills, the leadership skills, this is something that you can learn just as a, a financial manager to keep using the financial guys.

[00:07:13] Sebastian: Just as a financial manager looks at you and sees you hacking into something and think, well, that, that's magic. He must have been born with a different brain to do that. No, you learned it. You went through trainings and you tried things and you went through a certain path. The same thing is with leadership and management.

[00:07:31] Sebastian: So people shouldn't be afraid to make that jump, but also shouldn't just expect that, oh, it just happens. It, it takes some work. It, uh, and you, you'll fail in some areas you'll learn, gain some experience. There are mentors and coaches and trainings that you, you can follow. There are all kind of frameworks.

[00:07:48] Sebastian: Just as you have 10,000 uh, uh, security frameworks, you can find 10,000 books on various management methods and frameworks. It's a very structured domain that I can follow. 

[00:08:00] Chris: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, and that's what's interesting to me too, is you know, it sounds like this parallels your journey, which is kind of within technology.

[00:08:08] Chris: I think, at least one of the things that attracted me to it, and, and I feel like a lot of other people are attracted to technology because of a mind that thinks logically kind of rationally and, and very much like stepwise and this, you know, kind of engineers level of discovery. And then, you know, we talk about soft skills a lot and I think one of the reasons there's a gulf there is because.

[00:08:28] Chris: We are, you know, changing the way we think a little bit. But to your point, right, the management, you know, management actually has been studied quite well. And if you're willing to apply that same kind of analytical process that you did to learning about how servers work, or how firewalls work, or how networks work, if you apply that to how people and businesses and organizations work, you probably can find some success.

[00:08:49] Sebastian: Yeah, absolutely. And it applies to, to everything in security. There are so many wheels that we keep trying to reinvent where we could just use something that might already exist in the business. I mean, security, especially in the enterprise world, security is a lot about processes and there are so many tools for process security, for process improvement that we just don't use because we think that somehow, just because it's a security process is different than any other process in the, in the world.

[00:09:18] Sebastian: This is just not a business process and we can reuse so much and we can get so much benefit and we can be so much more effective in security by using. And also, it, it brings the, the fact that you are using frameworks and tools that are familiar to the, to your, to your business counterparts. You start talking the same kind of language and it helps them to understand you better and it helps you to understand the business side better because another thing that I keep emphasizing in, in the various talks I am giving.

[00:09:46] Sebastian: Security is not a goal in itself. And then sometimes we, we tend to forget that security is not about security. Security is about protecting the business or protecting the organization that you are part of protecting the, the people around you. It's, it is not a goal in itself. 

[00:10:02] Zoe: So one thing that I was interested in touching on with you is obviously you're my manager, so we work together.

[00:10:09] Zoe: But, um, one thing I really like about the way you approach your management style, Is you change how you manage based on the person, but also based on the situation. And one thing that you shared with me was this situational leadership, I think is what it was called. I can picture the graph at the moment, but I'm very bad with names.

[00:10:30] Zoe: Um, and one thing I've appreciated about that is how you can apply how you are managing somebody, the style you're managing, being more supportive or more, uh, hands off based on the situation. Obviously situational awareness. And how do you, as a manager, how do you get to the point where you. Understand how to do that effectively because I think in security specifically, we struggle a little bit with the people stuff and we struggle a little bit with relationships and we struggle a little bit with, um, handling the right amount of leadership or the right type of leadership we suppose.

[00:11:07] Sebastian: Well, let me tell you a secret. Everybody struggles. It's not, it's not just a security problem. It, it, it seems. Maybe a bit more, more for us, but it's not, it's really a skill that needs to be learned. The framework that you, uh, that you're referring to, that's now the, uh, uh, blanchard's, uh, situational leadership.

[00:11:23] Sebastian: Uh, And it's indeed a very powerful tool and it helps you to recognize at what level a certain person is in a certain skill, because the same person might be very developed and very self-sufficient in one area and need a bit more coaching or very, uh, directive style in a different area, and learning how to recognize those stars and learning which kind of communication tools, what kind of language works for somebody in, uh, in each of those situations.

[00:11:52] Sebastian: Going through the method, but also applying it and testing it, seeing how it works. Because there's always, of course, a difference between what you learn from the book and when you start applying, especially when you work with, with people. But there are steps that that can be taken. And this works very well in cooperation with communication styles and, uh, learning a little bit about, uh, conflict management.

[00:12:12] Sebastian: Cuz again, conflict is not just something magical. Nobody knows how to handle conflict by default. Yeah, we, we do security. We, we are no strangers to conflict, especially since we so often are, the bearer of, um, of bad news. Uh, and we tell people that their children is ugly, which nobody likes to hear. And how do we say that?

[00:12:31] Sebastian: How do we, uh, by the way, it doesn't apply to, uh, to your, uh, daughter Zoe, uh, uh, but how do we communicate that? How do we recognize communication styles? How do we recognize the communication styles that others are using with us? So, Be effective in our reply and make sure that the message we're trying to get across is the right one.

[00:12:52] Sebastian: Cause we also have a big gap between what we're saying and what is being perceived on the other side. And again, it's nothing magical. It's some people might have a few more, uh, native skills for it, but it's everybody at the end of the day learns it one way or another. There are plenty of tools that we can use.

[00:13:11] Chris: Yeah. Not to dive too deep into kind of one facet of what you just said, but one of the things you mentioned at the tail end of that that I think is really interesting to me personally is that idea that, you know, communication is participatory. And so, you know, if you just say, oh, I said that, like I sent that email, your job isn't done yet.

[00:13:30] Chris: Right? I think it was George Bernard Shaw who said something along the line. I'm gonna screw up the quote, but something along the lines. Words are simply postage stamps that the receiver must unwrap to receive the message. Something along that, and I, and I really like that, that you know what you're responsible for if you're trying to communicate is what the other person hears, not what you're saying.

[00:13:52] Chris: And I, and that also goes back to kind of postal's law and the idea that, you know, you know, communication is robust when you are liberal in what you receive and conservative in what you send. And it's all about this, just kind of taking that responsibility that what I actually want out of this situation is for that person to do the thing or know the thing or whatever it is.

[00:14:11] Chris: And so you've gotta tailor your communication so that it works for them, not necessarily that you feel like you've done your job right. 

[00:14:17] Sebastian: Yeah, absolutely. And again, I'm going to link to, uh, Ms. Stephen Covey's seven Habits. And one of the habits is search first to understand and then to be understood. This applies to communication as well because you cannot appreciate how your message is going to be perceived on the other side if you do not have some understanding of the recipient.

[00:14:39] Sebastian: And the more you do to understand that person, to understand their challenges, what kind of, what kind of issues are they facing? If you don't do that, then the message might read to them very differently from the one that you intended to say. And that's a lesson that I've learned multiple times. In sometimes very painful ways.

[00:14:59] Sebastian: And then I had the luck of having some people who pointed out, look, take a step back, talk with that person and check what was their understanding of that message? What did they actually find in that package that they were unwrapping on which you applied the, the stamp and seeing how different it is. We, we, we think that the differences in, in perception of the messages or some something minor, maybe some details.

[00:15:26] Sebastian: People can fundamentally misread our messages and not just our messages, our, uh, nonverbal communication because even though we work remotely so much, and, and written and voice is the, the main communication, we still see each other from time to time. And learning a little bit from those communication cues, how to interpret the communi, the non-verbal cues from the other, and recognizing how much of the communication in normal human interaction is non-verbal.

[00:15:54] Sebastian: That's also very important. 

[00:15:56] Zoe: So one thing that I wouldn't talk on is your, Kind of very diverse background. So we both live at work in the Netherlands, but you're not from the Netherlands. Um, you've also worked in quite a few different countries and different continents. Maybe not physically, but I know you worked for companies based in the US as well.

[00:16:17] Zoe: So I'm curious in your perspective about. Dealing with in working with different cultures as well as you're currently working in your non-native language. And so I suspect that kind of parallels that conversation we just had about miscommunication and it's probably, I'm unskilled so I don't have multiple languages, backgrounds.

[00:16:37] Zoe: I barely speak English, but um, I do find it extremely impressive that most of my coworkers, including. Can speak in a, their non-native language and do a really good job of it. So I'm curious on your kind of experience in that kind of environment. 

[00:16:55] Sebastian: Also, language wise, I was, I was in way lucky that early on I started working in the, in English and in it, a lot of the, the information is in English, so it kind of pushes you in, um, in that direction.

[00:17:07] Sebastian: But the language itself is just the first and maybe a small part of the, uh, of the equation. There are indeed big differences between, between cultures and there are big differences between, uh, business culture cultures and looking at Europe and United States to take a very simple one, or Europe and Japan, that you have to make a bit of an effort to understand the differences, to understand the, the work culture, to understand what certain things mean in different culture.

[00:17:35] Sebastian: Even within Europe, we, I mean, we're both working with, with different countries and we see very different, a different style. You have the very direct do, uh, Dutch approach, and you have the more taking the time and being a bit more indirect and trying to preserve the, the relation that you have in the, in the southern, uh, cultures.

[00:17:55] Sebastian: And there are, again, there, there are trainings and methods. There are in, uh, couple of years ago we got, um, a very, very beautiful training from, from somebody who was specialized in cultural differences. And they were explaining how even things like the perception of time is very different in the, uh, in different cultures and not just, oh, some people tell me late more fundamentally about the, the timeline between making a decision to do something and completing that action.

[00:18:23] Sebastian: How do you do the follow up to the action? That perception of time, and it's not even linear for all the cultures. It's very enlightening and what certain words mean. And even in English, where, you know, you say, yeah, but everybody uses English as the business language. Yes. But certain words can be problematic in the, in different, uh, different languages and you cannot pay attention each and every time.

[00:18:48] Sebastian: And when we speak, sometimes we just go on, uh, automatic pilot and we, uh, and it's easy to make mistake. Making, at least the effort makes a difference and looking for, for that knowledge. And yeah. I'm asking if you're in a company just asking, is there a training about this? Is there some cultural appreciation or cultural differences?

[00:19:06] Sebastian: The trainings that I could make, I've benefited a lot from that. 

[00:19:10] Chris: Has that been a challenge for you? Or, or maybe, maybe lemme ask this a better way. What, what is the largest challenge that you've faced in your career so far? 

[00:19:19] Sebastian: Oh, uh, myself, , myself, and especially early in the career. Me and my big mouth, speaking of communication skills, so let me, uh, tell you a secret.

[00:19:29] Sebastian: I was never good at soft skills, as in I was terrible. Uh, I've ended, I've started and, uh, amplified a lot of conflict without, without even meaning to. Fortunately I was able to, uh, to learn from that. But yeah, that, that was one of the first obstacles that I needed to, to outcome, to get myself out of the way.

[00:19:49] Sebastian: And yeah, I come from, from a culture that is, Has some strong influences from, from Southern Europe in terms of being very outspoken and, and vocal and just, you just say what, what you mean? And, um, use your hand a lot. And Romainians do, do that, uh, do that as well. And we're very passionate about, about what you're doing.

[00:20:09] Sebastian: And I am passionate about, uh, what I'm doing as well. And I, I love, uh, IT and I love security. But we have to be careful that that passion is very easy to translate into. We don't care about the others, we just care about ourselves. There's a fine line there that we need to really be careful with because Yeah, otherwise you end up like, like me having to, having to explain to quite a few managers.

[00:20:33] Sebastian: Why did you say that again? 

[00:20:35] Zoe: One quote that I really like that I saw from, I think it was DEF Camp, uh, I think it was with their website. It was your quote, but I stole it from the page was opinions are my own and I'm not afraid to change them. For me, I read that as I like, I'm very opinionated, but I will listen.

[00:20:53] Zoe: That's kind of how I see you kind of present yourself as a manager in our team is you're very outspoken. Yes. But when I give you feedback and say, this is how I read this. I know you'll listen to me. When did that quote come about? Was it a mistake that happened or was it. Trying to express yourself differently.

[00:21:13] Sebastian: Oh, if, if it would've been just one mistake, but , but seriously, yeah. It, it's, it's something that I've learned part of it from, from books. Um, as I said, Covey has exactly some, um, some learnings about that, about getting yourself out of the way and trying to listen first before you want to be understood by, by others, and understanding that your opinions are still based on a limited set of facts and quite often we do not have all the facts or our interpretation of the facts might be slightly different from different perspectives. 

[00:21:46] Sebastian: That that's why it's important to, to speak with people, to understand where, where do they they come from, and really getting ourselves out of the way and understanding that we do not lose anything by changing our mind.

[00:21:58] Sebastian: It's not something that defines us, our ability to, to change our minds when presented with new facts. That's something that can define us, and that's a very good quality to have. 

[00:22:09] Zoe: One other point that I wanted to ask about was, we're both managers, but I feel like, well, you're my manager, so therefore you automatically are more senior.

[00:22:18] Zoe: But I do feel like I, I've noticed a difference between our capabilities. Which I would hope you are my manager, but, um, but, uh, one question I had is getting into that much more senior position and kind of what advice would you give yourself if you were starting again from either a junior position or maybe your mid-level management and you're looking to go up higher, what kind of advice would you give yourself?

[00:22:44] Sebastian: So I would say, Or find, find a mentor. I, I didn't, I didn't have that, uh, early on, and that's something I, we, I wish I had. Try to learn, try to read, uh, read some books and but also try to, try to avoid falling into the trap of reading 10,000 books and not applying one. Find something that resonates with you.

[00:23:03] Sebastian: Fi find a method that you feel that you can work with and apply. That's, that's something that I also see with some people that it's easy to read a lot, but making that step, okay, I'm going to change something. I'm going to start applying, applying something that's a, that's a very difficult one, and I, it happened to me early on.

[00:23:22] Sebastian: I was reading things and. I was having this mis just because I read them, that means that they will automatically start to apply in practice. No, no. You, you have to make conscious effort. It has to be unintentional. Change that you start, apply, applying those things, only then change will happen. And I'm by, by the way, I'm not, I'm not your senior.

[00:23:44] Sebastian: I just happen to, to be in a different role in, in the organization. This is another important skill. And it's another aspect of getting yourself out of the way as you move into, into management and leadership, really accepting that you do not know everything and accepting that you will have people in the, in the team that are smarter than than you, as you are, for example.

[00:24:08] Sebastian: And learning how to let them do their work, how to make you shine and putting them, uh, on the spotlight when it needs to be shielding them when they need to be shielded and working with them. The sooner you understand that, everybody can bring something to the table and just looking at what everybody brings to the table and how can you make a nice dinner out of it.

[00:24:30] Sebastian: That's a very important skill. And also look at, if you want to see when you are maybe ready to make a progression in, uh, in leadership and management. And by the way, leadership and management are not the same things. You can be a leader without being a manager. And there are many managers who are not leaders and there is a, uh, story going on the side.

[00:24:45] Sebastian: Uh, sideline that leadership versus management and is like walking in the, walking through a jungle. As a manager, you make sure that everybody's well rested, that the guys at the front have the best machettes, that they're sharpened and they're making good progress and leadership is climbing on a, on a tall tree and looking around and checking if you are in the right jungle.

[00:25:09] Sebastian: And you can, you can start being a leader, uh, without having, um, uh, responsibilities. And you can take initiative. You can be proactive about, about things, and you'll see how people react to that. Are you making the right choices? Do they re do, they stop, stop and listen to me. This was my revelation that maybe I should start looking into, into leadership and management.

[00:25:31] Sebastian: I was in a technical role many years ago. We were working with, with this customer and we keep having discussions and that were going around in circles and we were not making progress. And because I was not the senior in the, in those meetings, I was just, you know, speaking when I was being asked at some point, I, I said, guys, can me stop for a second?

[00:25:53] Sebastian: I'm not quite sure I understand. What's the problem we're trying to solve here? Can we break it down a little bit and, alright, so it's that, but can we dig into that a little bit more and, alright, so how about you try this and you try this and how about we take this approach and it was absolutely not my place to make, to make those comments, but I so people listening and I saw things changing and I saw the log jam getting out, stuck.

[00:26:19] Sebastian: Right. That, that's interesting and I'm getting a really good feeling from this. I, I'm making change happen without applying the, even the technical skills. I'm not developing anything here. And yet the, the client is happy. We're moving forward. Hmm, what, what is this? And the, that can be a moment where, you know, paying a bit of attention around you can help you to move to move forward.

[00:26:43] Chris: Awesome. This has been a really fun conversation. Unfortunately, we are about out of time for today. Sebastian, thank you so much for sharing your story with the Imposter Syndrome Network, and thank you to all of our listeners for your attention and your support. We do have a LinkedIn group for the Imposter Syndrome Network that we'd love for you to join and get or give career advice, mentorship, or just general community support.

[00:27:08] Chris: Before we close out. Sebastian, I am curious. With, you know, of a fairly long and illustrious career, I think you're in a really good position and you've definitely picked up a lot of insight and, and personal growth along the way and, and have become a great leader at this point. Do you ever feel like you're not smart enough?

[00:27:24] Sebastian: Oh, every day. ab absolutely every day. Uh, but I compensate that. But having, um, a really, um, uh, great team, really it. And by seeing that, right. I might not be smart enough now, but there are things I can learn. I can still pick up a book and learn things that, that helps a lot. 

[00:27:43] Chris: Yeah. So that, that seems like that's kind of your response to imposter syndrome or whatever we want to call it, is just reminding yourself, I I can learn, I can get better and, and maybe even going and doing that.

[00:27:53] Sebastian: Yeah, exactly. And basically saying, I'm not good enough yet.

[00:27:58] Chris: Hmm. I like that a lot. Uh, the yet makes a big, big difference. Absolutely. Do you have any projects that the Imposter Network should know about? Anything going on talks upcoming or something like that?

[00:28:09] Sebastian: Oh, un unfortunately, at the moment, I don't have have that much time for, for side projects.

[00:28:13] Sebastian: I, I do, um, help occasionally with the teaching some, uh, basic, uh, coding skills to, to kids together, together with my, with my son. I'm working now on the Christmas Village, which has been, been delayed, uh, this year. Usually quite, um, quite the project. And I do try to do things outside it like, like gardening.

[00:28:33] Sebastian: And Zoe has seen, seen more than enough of my, uh, garden pictures and flowers and everything. And, uh, yeah, and, and it's, and I also do, uh, running and it, it helps having those disconnect moments and maybe that, that would be a good, um, advice as well as pa as passionate as we are about IT and security. Stopping and literally smelling the roses from time to time.

[00:28:55] Sebastian: Finding something that allows us to disconnect a little bit can actually be very beneficial. A lot of my ideas, the talk that I, that I gave recently when, uh, at DEF Camp came to me while I was running and just focusing on, on what's in front of me and just know what's in. 

[00:29:13] Chris: Yeah, it's amazing how powerful the, uh, the subconscious can be if you, uh, do its thing.

[00:29:18] Chris: Do you have a presence on, on social media or if, if folks wanted to reach out and, and get in touch with you, talk more. Are you open to that and where can people find you?

[00:29:24] Sebastian: Oh yeah. AB absolutely. So you can find, you can find me on, uh, on LinkedIn. I'm just Google my name, um, Sebastian, uh, Avarvarei. I'm also on, on Twitter at Sebastian_Paul.

[00:29:35] Sebastian: I do chat a a lot, uh, about many things, uh, politics from time, time. So be, be warned, and I, I do have some strong opinions on many, uh, many topics. But, um, I do follow a lot of the, um, uh, of the InfoSec, uh, community. Even though it's, uh, now it's shrinking a little bit on Twitter. I might, uh, need to do what I was planning actually long before, uh, before uh, Ellon to, uh, to open also Ma Mastadon, uh, account.

[00:30:00] Sebastian: That's something to, uh, to look into. 

[00:30:02] Chris: Yeah, it's definitely something that's going on here. Well, awesome. We'll post those links in the show notes so folks can find you if they want, and we will be back next week.