In this episode, we have a special guest, Eve Griliches, a Senior Product Manager at Cisco, with a wealth of experience in optical networking, product management, and product marketing.
We chat with Eve about her fascinating career path, starting from the service industry and transitioning to the tech world.
She discusses the importance of internships and continuous learning, highlighting the value of doing a short MBA and focusing on the security field. She shares insights on navigating the workplace, negotiating job offers, and standing up for oneself while maintaining humility.
As a woman who has often been the only female in the room, Eve talks about dealing with imposter syndrome and overcoming it by reminding herself that she belongs.
Don't tell yourself or others that you got lucky.
It wasn't luck.
You did your job well and were rewarded.
Thanks for being an imposter - a part of the Imposter Syndrome Network (ISN)!
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You can also find us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Patreon.
Make it a great day.
Machines made this transcription, blame them for any errors. =)
[00:00:00] Chris: Hello and welcome to the Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't. Welcome, imposters. My name is Chris Grundemann and I'm here with my co-host the Unflappable, Zoe Rose. Hello, this is the Eve Griliches episode, and you are in for a Treat. Eve is a senior product marketing manager at Cisco who has been focused on optical networking technology for I believe a couple decades at this point, and she's a great friend to have at any networking event.
[00:00:41] Chris: Hey, Eve, would you mind introducing yourself a bit further for the imposter syndrome network?
[00:00:46] Eve: Sure. Thank you guys. I'm looking forward to this today. Um, I've been around the industry for a while. I kind of kicked off from Wellfleet to Bay Networks to Nortel Networks, and I actually did a little stint in being an analyst at IDC and ACG, and then I went back into the industry with BTI and now I've been with Cisco for the last eight years.
[00:01:13] Eve: But I pivoted out of business school into thinking machines a million years ago, which was one of the first supercomputer companies, and that was a really rare treat. And I have to say, that was one company where we really thought we were gonna change the world because what we were doing, Was basically taking research that was being done over months and months and you know, doing it in an afternoon for people.
[00:01:42] Eve: So it was a pretty exciting times and I think we all are kind of looking to have jobs these days that will change the world and there are fewer and far between. That's a little bit of the history. And before that, I actually worked in the restaurant industry.
[00:01:57] Chris: I know you have a, a degree in psychology, and I know your first jobs weren't necessarily in technology.
[00:02:04] Chris: But I don't know. It sounds like your first job was in the food service business restaurant stuff. I don't know what that was. So maybe you can start by describing that first job and then telling us how you ended up in such an amazing career in technology from there.
[00:02:18] Eve: Well, like, like probably most of us, it was, uh, you know, handling the tap behind a bar, pouring beer on Friday nights.
[00:02:26] Eve: But from there I spent about 10 years in the restaurant industry moving into higher and higher positions and better and better restaurants. The last restaurant that I was in for about three years was Michaela's, uh, restaurant in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where the star celebrity chef was Todd English.
[00:02:48] Eve: And, uh, Todd taught us a lot of things. McKayla taught us a lot of things, but you know, when you're in the restaurant, you learn. You never go to the kitchen empty handed. You never come out of the kitchen empty handed. You're always having eye contact with your customers. You know, you learn that quality is really important.
[00:03:08] Eve: You don't just dump something on somebody. You learn to be really thorough. You learn how to support people, how to get people's backs. It's just a, it's a really great teamwork type of environment and I found in my early tech work that a lot of people could have learned a little bit from the service industry, especially the way they treat some of the service people.
[00:03:32] Eve: But I migrated out because I was really interested. I was actually doing the wine list and I was actually the wine sommelier there at McKayla's, and I learned a lot about Italian wine. And so I had suggested to Mikayla that we open up a wine shop and she said, well, why don't you give me a business report on it?
[00:03:49] Eve: And I didn't have, have a clue as to how to do that. So long story short, I went and got an mba, left the restaurant business. Got an mba, which transitioned me during the internship on the, uh, mba. And this is really a pivot point. I went to one of the CEOs who always requested stuff at the restaurant and asked if I could do the internship at her company, which was thinking machines.
[00:04:15] Eve: And, uh, she put me in touch with the manufacturing person. And long story short, I worked there for three weeks. They had a real issue with their MRP system, which is the material resource planning system. So they were ordering billions of dollars worth of, not billions, but floating point chips from Texas inst instruments.
[00:04:35] Eve: That cost a heck of a lot and the system was telling them that the numbers were all wrong. And so I kind of dove into it. I spent the first week going home every night reading about MRP systems and coming in the next day and saying, is our inventory correct? Is our work in progress correct? Are our work orders correct? Is the system correct?
[00:04:56] Eve: And so by the end of the week, me and the master scheduler felt that we fixed what the problem was. We ran new reports and on Monday morning, We had new reports for everybody out, and that was the end of the first week. I had sort of fixed the problem, which was great. And so the next two weeks I kind of just, you know, tried to do it a little bit better, but at the end of the three weeks they were like, we want you to keep working with us.
[00:05:20] Eve: And I was like, no, no, no, no. You know, I got three more months left of my mba. I wanna really, that's when it all comes together. Let me do that and then I'll come work. So, That was way back when it was actually a pretty lousy economy. I was one of, uh, only six out of 90 students who had a job waiting for them, and I spent four years at at Thinking Machines, which was a great experience.
[00:05:45] Eve: So that was my transition and let me tell you what internships are the best thing to do. I highly recommend them. There were people that I knew that just, you know, decided that it was gonna be three weeks of vacation. And, uh, I think if you, it's one of the best ways to have people see how you were. So that was my transition.
[00:06:07] Zoe: Yeah, I, I personally have, uh, interns wherever I can. Like I currently have an intern as well. And, uh, it, it's interesting, uh, when you bring somebody on, cuz sometimes it's their first experience in a professional role. Sometimes it's not, but sometimes it's a brand new. And, uh, seeing their perception of what a professional job is.
[00:06:26] Zoe: And then what it really is, is a, is an interesting discovery, but I like the point you make about, it's not a holiday. Even if you don't necessarily have things you're accountable for, you can massively prove your. Worth, you know, prove how good you are just by being dedicated. Really, I've been very impressed.
[00:06:47] Zoe: I've been very lucky with all of my interns I've ever had. They've always been high performers, but I, uh, I've always been very impressed with them and how clever they are. Because from your perspective, you came from a different industry, but you brought in a troubleshooting kind of mindset, even if you weren't necessarily in that area and that your, that's your, you know, natural skillset.
[00:07:09] Zoe: It was. You were looking at it from, okay, well what do we have? And then going through the checklist of, is this right? Is this right? Is this right? So I think that's a really cool thing to highlight is you don't necessarily have to be the most technical to do, uh, that social work. I think that was really cool.
[00:07:25] Zoe: We can jump back into the other stuff in a moment, but one thing that stuck out to me is Chris mentioned you have a degree in psychology. And I think that's really brilliant. I find psychology very interesting. I'm curious as to why you got that degree and how has it helped you in your career?
[00:07:42] Eve: Honestly, um, it really hasn't.
[00:07:45] Eve: It was fun to know. I wish I could say, oh yeah, I really understand people really well, but I, I think there are things that I learned really in the mba and that's, that's, Partly why I think, uh, if people could get like a one month MBA that kind of crosses all the areas, it would help a lot more. So the psychology really didn't, didn't help.
[00:08:09] Eve: But I think what I learned in my MBA were things that I kind of talk about when I do, um, my negotiation talks for students and, and graduate students, which is, you know, when you're interacting with people, I mean, times have changed, right? We actually negotiate with a million people every single day or a week.
[00:08:30] Eve: You know, we're not dealing with hierarchical levels anymore, where we rarely talk to the boss's boss. You know, we talk to everybody all the time and negotiate all the time, and so, Things like what's your medium? Is IM the best medium? Is picking up the phone the best medium? Is email your favorite medium?
[00:08:48] Eve: So when I get to know somebody, you know, I always ask 'em, what's your preferred medium? And it's been very different for people. I mean, I've had one boss that said, just pick up the phone and call me. I had another boss that was absolutely email, never call me. And then I have people who are IMing me and I'm telling them, you know, look, would you just put that all in an email for me and I'll address everything in that one email?
[00:09:12] Eve: So there's different ways through, you know, negotiation that I think we can communicate with people. And I don't think it had anything to do with psychology as much as, uh, it had to do with what I learned through negotiation and, and the skills of, in my MBA course. And a lot of those came through with, you know, how to get a job, how to keep a job, knowing when to leave a job.
[00:09:37] Eve: You know, like one of the things I, I often discuss is, you know, when people are telling you, we're supporting your product, we're supporting you with this, it's gonna come out in a week or so, and then it doesn't happen. So the, the words are not in sync with the actions of the people who have promised you those things.
[00:09:56] Eve: That's when the, the writing literally is on the wall. And if that happens enough times, that's when it's sort of a good time to, to leave a job. And then I also kind of talk about a little bit of when you get a job, so many engineers or people in tech just say, yes, I accept the job. They don't think about really negotiating the 17 variables that can go along with that, especially in this day and age when we can have hybrid work.
[00:10:27] Eve: You know, how much vacation do I have? Can I get, you know, a better bonus percentage? Can I get a discussion in six months about an increase of the salary? You know, there are so many variables that you can really talk about. How many days can I work from home? So, you know, make sure that you never sort of just say yes and do that.
[00:10:52] Chris: Yeah. That's a really important lesson I think Eve, because I definitely know in like my first couple jobs, like they offered me the job, I'm gonna take it. And they, and a lot of times companies present the, you know, the offer is presented as like, here's your salary number and then here's our standard booklet of everything that everyone gets, right?
[00:11:09] Chris: This, this is, you know, what vacation time, benefits, whatever those things are, whatever. All those ancillary and they just, they have kind of pre-written that and handed to you. And it very much feels like you just get what you're given. I mean, it definitely, at least for me, took several jobs before I started realizing, oh, like just because they wrote it down in their little book doesn't mean that like nothing's on the table here and I can actually negotiate any or all of this.
[00:11:32] Chris: And so I think one, just the experience to know, oh, I can ask for things and then, you know, the confidence to. Be willing go because any negotiation, I think at least maybe you'll correct me since you talk about this a lot, but you know, to me really to succeed in a negotiation, you kind of have to be willing to walk away, which is tough when you're looking for a job and you know the job offers on the line.
[00:11:52] Chris: It, it's sometimes tough to say, well, you know, what if, if I can't have flexibility to be with my kids or go race motorcycles on the weekend, or whatever it is for you, you might have to say no. And then that's pretty scary too.
[00:12:03] Eve: And I think the hardest part is separating the fact that it's a business transaction from an emotional transaction because you're emotional, because you think you're worth all of this, but it's really just a business transaction.
[00:12:19] Eve: My, my very first negotiation, I cried. And guess what? I didn't get the raise, and that's not surprising. So you really have to put your emotions all the way on the other side of the room and look at everything that you're doing as a complete business. Serious transaction and not allow any emotion into it at all.
[00:12:43] Eve: And I think for women, that's kind hard to do and we really have to honestly separate it and, and consciously be thinking about separating it all time. Men are much better at it.
[00:12:55] Chris: Yeah, we had a guest on not too long ago, we said very similar thing. He, he, you know, mentioned that these are business transactions and that even if you are an employee and you're just, you know, going for a job like this is a financial transaction, this is a business transaction, you really have to treat yourself as a company of one and look at it that way and look at negotiation and, and all those things that way.
[00:13:12] Chris: So that resonates for me a lot. Are there other areas, I mean, obviously I think that's a really, really good tip, right? Kind of understanding that this is a business transaction and, and trying as well as you can to take the emotion out of it. Do you have any tips for, for how to do that? Like how do you def, you know, if you're, if you're feeling, you know, flushed with, with emotion, is it just time or space or, I mean, how, how do you handle that?
[00:13:31] Eve: Well, I think if you're flushed with emotion, you have to impose the 15 minute rule on yourself and, and take yourself out of it and have a talk with yourself. But I think. You know there, there was a time when I moved from manufacturing when I was at Bay Networks. I moved from manufacturing into product line management, and I realized that I was surrounded by a bunch of people who were paid much higher than I was.
[00:13:55] Eve: And so each time I did something that I felt was really important, I would kind of march into my boss's office and, and tell her that, um, Hey, look, you know, I just did this. I just did that. Those guys are still paid like a hundred thousand dollars more than I am. It's, they were. You know, how are you gonna, how are you gonna sort of make this up to me?
[00:14:17] Eve: And then one thing after another, and I kept going in and doing it again and again and again. And that's something that you really have to do. You have to stand up for yourself and not just kind of sit back and, and say, Hey, I, I'm paid well, I'm not gonna worry about this.
[00:14:33] Zoe: I'm, I'm still really rubbish at negotiating to not say that I'm an expert at all, but one thing that I try to do is pretending I'm negotiating or arguing for somebody I admire because if it's me, it's too personal.
[00:14:47] Zoe: I don't necessarily always view my value as greatly as I should. And if it's somebody I admire though, I can look at all of her achievements and say, oh, look, she did this, and oh, she did that and, and that's how I. Kind of switch my brain from the personal to business because I think it's a bit easier to argue for somebody else.
[00:15:07] Eve: That's a really, that's a really good thing. That's a great point, Zoe. And, and let me, let me ask you a question. Have you ever told people that you have been lucky in your jobs? You're lucky to have gotten the jobs that you've gotten.
[00:15:20] Zoe: I wanna say no cuz I know what your answer's gonna be, but uh, yeah, definitely.
[00:15:25] Eve: So this is one of the things that, and I used to say that all the time. I used to say I've been really lucky cuz I've worked for some great companies and I've gone, you know, I think into better and better positions over time with all of these great companies. I begin to start stopping people when they say I was lucky because you weren't lucky.
[00:15:46] Eve: You worked hard, you worked hard, you did a good job, and therefore you advanced, therefore you got paid more. Therefore you went on to other companies and all of that type of stuff. So those are the things that kind of gets to the imposter syndrome of this. You know, let's not sit back and say, geez, was I lucky in life?
[00:16:08] Eve: The honest answer is no. You worked hard and you got pretty far because of it.
[00:16:14] Chris: Yeah, I like that a lot. Definitely. It's something I, I think I've often used the, you know, I got lucky, maybe sometimes a false, but, but kind of a form of humility. Of trying to kind of, you know, you, you, it's almost like a cowering, a little bit of like, ah, well, you know, I, you know, I got lucky because sometimes it is hard to like, you know, stand up and beat your chest a little bit and say, no, like, I, I actually killed it and I did this thing and it was amazing, and I move forward.
[00:16:36] Chris: I, that, that's hard to say a lot of the time. So I think, you know, oh, I got lucky. Is, is an easy way to kinda just diffuse it and, and move on. But I agree with you that that minimizes you right a little bit.
[00:16:45] Eve: I totally agree with that. I mean, humility is really important and going out there and just boasting about things is, is not the way to get credibility.
[00:16:55] Eve: But its, you know, when you're talking with your friends, like, ah, I just got really lucky. It's like, no, let's admit that it was hard work.
[00:17:03] Chris: Well, there's a line there, right? I mean, I think like most things that are important, there's a balance, there's a spectrum. You can definitely lean too far one way or the other.
[00:17:10] Chris: And, and what I've found is a lot of times when I have very low confidence is actually when I do the most kind of outlandish, like egotistical things and like that's when I'm actually like boasting, right? It's actually when I feel really small and it's actually a lot easier to be humble when you feel really big, I've found.
[00:17:25] Chris: I don't know if that's something that's, uh, been true for you as well.
[00:17:28] Eve: Yeah. Yeah, I think I, you know, I've been asked, uh, I, I had some modeling things that I had to do at thinking machines that were, this is kind of interesting. You know what, what if we became a 5 million dollar company? How much hardware would we have to buy?
[00:17:42] Eve: What if we were a 30 million company? I did a bunch of modeling and I didn't think I could really do, but you know what? I kind of ended up doing that, and I was pretty proud of myself for doing that. But at, at first, I thought, I don't know how to do any of this. I mean, I, I was just like struck by, spent hours thinking, I can't do this, I can't do this.
[00:18:04] Eve: And then I eventually did it and I kind of was like, whoa, I did it. And then that modeling went from, can you tell us if we took every bit of 128 meg memory off of all the cards that are out there and sold it on the market price today, what that would bring us cash wise? That's when I knew that things were not going well.
[00:18:30] Eve: But you know, that was a different, different type of modeling. But yes, I think when people ask you to do things that are definitely a stretch, you tend to be a little bit more enthusiastic. Like, wow, I did it. I surprised myself. And it's great and I've, I've actually looked back on that and appreciated it.
[00:18:49] Eve: But at those times, of course it was totally stressful. You know, I won't deny that.
[00:18:54] Zoe: Yeah. The approach that I've noticed only recently I've taken is when I start to feel that panic of being like, oh, that's really difficult, or that's gonna take a lot of effort to learn. I just stop that train of thought and I don't allow myself to go down it.
[00:19:08] Zoe: And it's slightly avoiding, so probably not the healthiest approach, but it has worked because it's allowed me to stop worrying about it and just think, okay, what do I need to get to the next step? Not to solve the problem, but get to the next step. I think that slightly helps me because then I'm thinking, okay, what's the next step?
[00:19:25] Zoe: Now? What's the next step now instead of, oh my goodness, the world is on fire.
[00:19:29] Zoe: I am curious cuz your currently, your current role is Senior product marketing manager. What kind of role is that? Like what's your day to day? And if somebody were to ask, what do you do? How would you describe that?
[00:19:43] Eve: Oh gosh. So like, you know, how, how do I describe what I do to my mom, uh, and to my friends because they always say they have no idea what I do.
[00:19:51] Eve: Exactly. I view the most important thing about marketing is to have customer endorsements. You know, you could go out there and say that my company is the best company in the world. Whatever, but it's really when your customers talk about what you've done for them and how you've helped them and how you've changed their network, those are the best stories, and so I really try to work as much as I can to get press releases or case studies done with our customers and get as much customer endorsement as I can.
[00:20:27] Eve: Even a simple quote from, you know, a customer, if they okay it, then, then those things are, are really the most helpful because they provide so much credibility to the business unit and so much credibility to, to the company and the products. So that's the most important thing to me. And, and you know, we can create collateral and we can get out there and be at shows and everything else, but that's sort of what, what marketing encompasses more for me, rather than sort of a digital journey.
[00:21:01] Chris: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I, and I think it's valuable because, you know, I mean, I guess you could fake it. I was gonna say, you can't fake it. I mean, I guess you could fake it, but, but if they're actually genuine, you know, customer endorsements, you know, that's something that is, is real and is tangible.
[00:21:13] Chris: Anybody can say they're the greatest. And, and few of us live up to that, but when someone else says it, you know, someone who's actually using your product. I mean, it means a lot more.
[00:21:20] Eve: I mean, we know, like, you know, in our sort of meetings that we have in the NANOG community or whatever, that, that people share information.
[00:21:30] Eve: They share information and guidance, and share information on vendors that they like and vendors that they don't like. And so, You know, it's also important that if those customers are happy, then they're telling other customers and people are relying on what they're saying and who they're using. So, you know, it's important to sort of keep them happy as well.
[00:21:52] Eve: And I try to guide everybody to say it's not just the decision maker and the purchaser, it's everybody around them that we have to convince that our products are the right products. Because they're going to look to them to get endorsements as well. So if we just focus on the decision maker, that's never gonna be enough.
[00:22:16] Eve: At least that's, that's the way I look at things. So how do we influence all the other people around them and make them feel comfortable with, you know, our products and our company.
[00:22:27] Zoe: Oh, that's really good point. Question, understanding your kind of career, and it sounds like you're quite motivated by challenge and figuring things out and finding ways to motivate or communicate with people.
[00:22:40] Zoe: But I suppose if you were to put it into a a sentence, what drives you? What brings you joy at work?
[00:22:47] Eve: It's kind of funny. I did a assessment yesterday. A lot of it is just achieving things, getting things done, you know, bringing people together to. Get something of high quality done and out there, um, and then allow, you know, sort of telling people, refer back to this.
[00:23:06] Eve: We've done something for you. All the answers are, are in here. Now come and refer to this. Because I, you know, nobody can be available all the time and, and we run really, really lean in my business unit. And so it's really important that we have some things to help product line managers because they can't scale to talk to everybody.
[00:23:31] Eve: And so it's a very simple formula that everything that we do that helps sales sell things is successful for the company. So the more we help sales, the better the company does, the better we're going to be. It's really, really simple. And so sometimes I see people, you know, saying, I don't wanna help this person.
[00:23:55] Eve: I don't wanna do this for sales. I'm like, do I have to go through the simple algorithm of: Help sales. Sales helps the company. The company does well, we do well. Very simple.
[00:24:08] Zoe: Yeah. It's, it's the, it's the simple maths of. We're all in the same company. We should theoretically have the same end goal, and therefore working together is beneficial.
[00:24:20] Zoe: Even with sometimes I admit some answers or some questions are a bit tedious, it's worth it in the end. And then another I was looking at is if you could either start over or give advice to a brand new person, what would it be?
[00:24:34] Eve: Oh, That's a great question. I would say do as many internships as possible.
[00:24:41] Eve: Try to do a short m MBA of some kind. Focus, you know, uh, I think a few years ago it was focus on computer engineering or software engineering. Now I think it's focus on security. Focus on security, you know, A to Z anywhere in, in security, because I, I think that's, Just a, a wide, wide area. I guess that's the, that's the advice I would give and I think also it probably helps to find and emulate some folks that you really think well of and try to follow their path and companies or follow the path that they have done.
[00:25:25] Eve: Especially if you're really young and really new, how do they work with people? Sort of emulate what they do or find the person that you think is the greatest at what they do and try to emulate, you know, how they're going about that. Take their best qualities and leave any, any bad qualities and kind of continue to do that through your career.
[00:25:47] Eve: Take some of the best qualities that you see in some people and and try to dismiss some of the other qualities.
[00:25:55] Chris: Yeah, I like that a lot. I think having role models makes a lot of sense. Um, has helped me a lot. Well, that's gonna have to do it for today actually. Time flies when you're having fun. Eve. Thank you Mocho for sharing your story with the Imposter Syndrome Network and also a big heartfelt thank you to all of our listeners for your attention and your support.
[00:26:15] Chris: If you found this conversation informative or entertaining, please consider sharing it with a friend, a colleague, a family member, or a student who could benefit from the insight our guests bring every week. You're not quite off the hook yet, though, Eve. I do have one more question, and I'm hoping you might tell us what you do when you feel imposter syndrome kicking in.
[00:26:35] Chris: I mean, when you're in that situation and maybe. You know, you feel less than for some reason, maybe you're feeling lucky or, or unlucky, you know, what, is there anything you do to combat that or, or to, to kind of talk yourself down or, I, I guess I don't wanna put words in your mouth. I'll let you speak.
[00:26:48] Eve: Uh, it's, it's, since I've been around for a while, I've been the only woman in a working room of men for years.
[00:26:57] Eve: So the imposter syndrome, why are you here, has always been a part of a part of my life and. It's hard to deal with and I, and I, I know men deal with it as well as women, but you just sort of have to say, I'm interested in this, this is my area and I'm, you know, I'm getting better at this area and, and I belong here and it's okay.
[00:27:23] Eve: You know, I think everybody has to overcome that and just give themselves a little bit of self-help. And self-esteem to know that you do belong there. There was one thing I actually wanted to just say also about Cisco, if I could. Yeah, sure. Over the period of the Covid timeframe, Cisco was absolutely amazing for all of us.
[00:27:49] Eve: They had like us on calls like every two weeks, and they would bring. Anyone like Michelle Obama, they would bring Brian Stevenson when there were like the George Floyd riots. They would bring in Van Jones. They brought in the guy from Coldplay to say, how do we all deal with this dude? You know? I don't know.
[00:28:14] Eve: I just like playing my guitar and try to like stay home and, but it really helped us all because we were sort of all together in this together. And I don't know of any other company that did that over the period of two and a half years. To sort of keep us all sane and even my business unit on Fridays at noontime was we had a one hour talk where we just could have a beer, we could have coffee, we could have water, but we couldn't talk about work.
[00:28:47] Eve: We could just talk about what's going on with you, how are you dealing with covid, what are the case is going on near you, you know, how are you doing? And of course there were all these like mental health things backing it up as well. But, It, it was an amazing support environment that I, I'm not sure if any other company had what we had during that timeframe, and so I'm incredibly grateful to, to Cisco for sharing it and, and doing that for the 70,000 employees, which they also, we can do 80 hours a year giving back, so we get paid for two weeks to give back.
[00:29:29] Eve: And I have done that a couple of times, and that in itself is, is pretty amazing.
[00:29:37] Chris: Yeah. That's fantastic. I mean, that's a great example of, of using company culture to really, you know, benefit not just your employees, but kind of, you know, their families and, and the communities they're in. So that, that's awesome.
[00:29:45] Chris: That's great to hear. I think there were some other companies that did a good job. I think there's also a lot of companies that did nothing or, or, or made it worse, but, uh, but no, that, that's, that's awesome to hear that, uh, that Cisco did such a great job with that. Well, I think that's it, and we'll be back next week.