Gema Perez

Machines made this, mistakes and all:

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello and welcome to the Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't welcome imposters. My name is Chris Grundman and I'm here with my co-host, the Master maven of Cybersecurity, Zoe Rose. Hey. Hey, this is the Gema Perez episode. And I'm excited to share it with all of you.

[00:00:28] Chris: Gema is focused on the world of cybersecurity, specifically risk and compliance, security culture, and training and awareness with an objective of enjoying every day and helping other colleagues grow professionally.

[00:00:43] Chris: Hey, Gema, would you mind introducing yourself a bit further to the imposter syndrome network? 

[00:00:48] Gema: Yes, of course. Thank you very much. Uh, Chris, thank you for having me. And hi Zoe. So yes, I'm currently, I'm information security desk. How do we call it? Risk and compliance lead, uh, globally for Capgemini engineer.

[00:01:02] Gema: And in the past I've been working a lot on information security, awareness, training, culture in general, crisis management, and yeah, a little bit from here, a little bit from there. Everything related to people mostly and risk. So yeah, that's me in a nutshell in the professional world. 

[00:01:19] Chris: Awesome. Now we'll get into your achievements and career path today.

[00:01:23] Chris: Of course. But I gotta say, I was really struck by your philosophy of work and technology. Um, so many folks, I think myself included, have spent years chasing advancement and recognition, but you seem to have figured out a different approach, and I'm hoping maybe you can tell us about your objective of enjoying every day.

[00:01:42] Chris: And maybe even tell us a bit about how that plays into the way you approach your job and your career. 

[00:01:47] Gema: Well, I don't think I've ever been asked a question, and I just realized that it just happened like that. So it's not like I had a path and I had an objective, I'm gonna enjoy a lot of my day-to-day life at work, but instead, When I was happy at work, when I was enjoying what I was doing, I was the best version of myself.

[00:02:06] Gema: So I was a better employee, a better colleague, a better person at home as well, of course. Because if you don't like your job, you come home and you're like, finally I come home. And then you, you vent and you share all your problems. So I realized that it makes me, when I'm happy, I want to be better and I want to learn more, and I'm more involved and yeah, everything is like in a very positive cycle that, uh, you're part of.

[00:02:31] Chris: That makes a ton of sense. I think you're right. I think, you know, we carry those emotions with us. One thing we've talked about, I think on a previous episode was, you know, even just kind of the, the move towards work from home, which is semi-related in that, I remember when I was commuting every day, I would show up to work already mad after having dealt with traffic and just, you know, being angry about not getting into work on time and all that stuff.

[00:02:51] Chris: And I'd show up to work mad and then that kind of carried through the day. And to your point, right, then you kind of carry that home with you, maybe out to your friends or or to your family. So, I mean, it does make sense, right? And I've seen the same thing that, you know, being happy and enjoying the work definitely makes everything better.

[00:03:05] Chris: But, but how do you do that? I mean, how, how do you follow through on that objective, right? I mean, is it, is it a matter of saying no to things you don't want to do? Is it a matter of just accepting things with more peace or is it really like actively managing what you're working on? Is it more of a state of mind or is it more active in changing what you're working on?

[00:03:20] Chris: Or, or maybe both. 

[00:03:22] Gema: Yeah. I would say for me at least, it's, it's both a hundred percent. First of all, I'm a person that I generally enjoy my job. I'm a weird person. When they ask you, Hey, how are you doing? How's your job going? And I'm like, I love my job. I'm this weird person, but I think it's indeed one thing triggers the other.

[00:03:39] Gema: So I. When you're involved and you want to do things well, you're gonna learn more. When you learn more, you're more in your, in your comfort zone. When you're more in your comfort zone zone, you're happier. So it's like making an effort because I'm trying to understand more, having, I'm trying to learn more.

[00:03:53] Gema: I'm trying to do all the trainings that I can do, so I'm, I really like my job, so I'm motivated already. I know it's not easy for everyone. Some people just want to do their jobs and they want to be there for eight hours and leave, go to their houses and, and. Be at home and they're happy with that. For me, I need this connection with work and I'm very emotional, so if I'm happy at work, I'm going to be happy at home, as I said and, and everything, it's, it's like this happy feeling about it.

[00:04:19] Gema: It at the end of the day, we spend eight hours minimum at work, so if you don't enjoy it, then you probably have a problem. Unless you have a lot of money. Of 

[00:04:28] Zoe: course. No, that's a really good point. We just need to work really hard so that we have so much money we don't have to work anymore. I like that opinion.

[00:04:37] Chris: If only that works so easily.

[00:04:39] Zoe: I know one question I had is, uh, you've moved from, I think it was approximately eight years you did security awareness, which is a long time to do one specific area. Uh, not that it was. Little, I mean, I, I worked with you, so I saw how creative you were building. You know, plans on training people and bringing awareness on a topic that, you know, people don't always necessarily want to hear about.

[00:05:07] Zoe: But then you shifted, what was it, this year actually to a very different role. How was that and why did you make that change?

[00:05:15] Gema: Yeah, so, um, I've been actually thinking about that for a long time because, you know, when you're in awareness or training or I would say almost whatever sector within cybersecurity or within whatever field, You feel like you're trapped at some point and you think you're not gonna be able to do anything else in your life.

[00:05:32] Gema: And that thing was in my head a lot. That thought was, was running, running in my head a lot, and I was thinking I have to get out of it to be able to decide whether I want to be there or not. But I have to get out of it and do and do other things as soon as possible. Otherwise, I'm gonna be so specialized and I'm only gonna be doing this forever and I'm not gonna be able to improve in other areas.

[00:05:54] Gema: Also, I wanted the challenge. At some point I felt like I was in my comfort zone a little bit. Of course, you always have to learn things. You have things you improve, you have more ideas, and you keep learning and you keep, um, yeah, reading other articles and new studies come and you always feel like there's more to do.

[00:06:11] Gema: But I felt a little bit too comfortable at some point. Okay. Um, I, this is how I do things here. This is how I measure, this is how I like to communicate to people. These are the things that I consider when I communicate. These are the things that I like reporting to the top management, and these are the things that work for me.

[00:06:29] Gema: So when I realized that I was too comfortable, I thought I have to do something else, it was really scary. I still feel from time to time like, Hmm, should I be here? So of course, that's why I am in the podcast, I guess. But when I made the move and I had support as well from the people that hired me saying, Hey, we hired you because we know that you have what, what we need, which is of course, it makes sense a hundred percent.

[00:06:53] Gema: And you should always think that when they hire you, you should never be worried. You should think always they hired me for a reason. They saw something in me or they saw the potential. So that's something not to worry about. And yeah, I'm enjoying a lot more than I thought the new role. It's true that I miss many other things from my previous role.

[00:07:09] Gema: It, of course, it's allowed you to be very creative. And you meet great people doing awareness because you're speaking with people all the time. But I miss the personal side of it, the, the human side of it. But I'm also doing things that are big challenges and you can have a more strategic view and, and you have to, to take a step back and see the whole organization and how to manage risks and how to, and what if an incident happen and what, how can I do it in a centralized way so that it works the same in India than in Germany.

[00:07:37] Gema: And yeah, it's, it's a whole new world that I'm exploring. And for now, it's, uh, going well. 

[00:07:43] Zoe: I'm slightly sad to hear that because I miss you, but I'm also really excited. Um, if we take a step backwards. Originally you, I believe the first role you had was a security awareness role or also learning and development.

[00:07:58] Zoe: I think it might've mentioned, one question I had was why did you choose that career and kind of how did you get into it? 

[00:08:04] Gema: Well, choosing wouldn't be the right word. I think I came in cybersecurity kind of by chance. But it's something that I, I enjoyed a lot. I am actually studied translation and interpreting, so very strange combination.

[00:08:21] Gema: But when I finished I thought, okay, I like tech a lot. I'm gonna study another degree. When I started computering science, computer science, and at some point I thought, okay, let's, let's do a master, let's, you know, make it stable like a potential career, the translation thing. But as I like technology, I did a masters in translation of video games, websites, software, and a little bit more technical stuff because I did the masters.

[00:08:46] Gema: I got an internship in, in a security operation center in a soc, and I started translating cybersecurity trainings there. Of course, when you're translating, some people think that it's just, you know, Put in the same message in English as in Spanish or French or whatever the language is, but you actually have to understand the meaning of, of the text to be able to transform it to the other language.

[00:09:07] Gema: So you cannot translate that training about hacking if you don't understand what hacking is. So I spent a long time on other websites just check in. What does SQL mean or what does D D O S mean? And not only the word, but the actual concept. So at the end of the day, I realized like, hmm, I actually, I'm learning about cybersecurity and I got the opportunity to keep working on the training side, not so much on the translation side.

[00:09:33] Gema: I accepted it. So I started working on training. The team was small. I always say I was the right, at the right time in the right place. So we grew a lot, and when I realized I was already leading a team, so yeah, from the beginning I've had this feeling of, what am I doing here? I'm a translator, but then you realize that you can do great things with many other skills, like soft skills and that I, I was actually learning a lot about cyber security as well.

[00:09:57] Gema: So it's not that, uh, I was, you know, a person that didn't know anything about cybersecurity. Yeah, it was, uh, an interesting way of starting, I think. 

[00:10:07] Chris: Yeah, it is. I personally have not spoken to anyone else who came into technology through translation. I really like that point that. Maybe especially in technology, maybe not, maybe, I mean there's a lot of technical fields out there, but that idea of, you know, having to understand what the message is more than just, you know, cuz Google Translate can take words and flip them into the other language, right?

[00:10:25] Chris: Translators needed to actually convey real meaning and understand that, you know, that string of words doesn't mean the same thing in, in another language, right? We often see those, those weird translations get, get meme and things like that sometimes where it's a direct, literal translation, but it doesn't actually mean the same thing.

[00:10:38] Chris: Um, and idioms and things like that, and especially technical topics. That's really interesting. But I think it also highlights, you know, something we've been talking about already a little bit, which is, you know, your focus is much more on, on humans and behaviors and awareness on, on language and communication versus a strict technical background.

[00:10:55] Chris: And so I'm really interested in just, you know, maybe your perspective on the security industry from that perspective. Right. You know, cause I assume, at least, you know, from talking to Zoe and then my, you know, seen my own career and, and seen other people in security that. A lot of technologists came to technology to avoid people.

[00:11:10] Chris: And so having you, you know, chase people into security, I is almost the opposite perspective of a lot of folks. I'm wondering, you know, h how does that work in your career? I mean, has it been really beneficial? Has it been a hindrance at all to, to come at it from the human side or, you know, how do you see cybersecurity from that human lens?

[00:11:27] Gema: I think from the communications point of view, I really enjoyed it because for me it was a challenge as well. When you work in training or in, in my case, to give you a little bit of context, when I started, I was working, as I said, at the soc. So there was a hacking team, there was an application security team, there was a CM team, so there was all these specialized teams, and then we were training clients with their support.

[00:11:50] Gema: So we actually had to work with all of them, with all the teams so that they would. Facilitate the trainings we would help them with, with everything. And they would be the trainings because of course, who would be best to TR to teach you about hacking than a hacker that is working there all the time. So you had to, first of all, you have the challenge of make them understand.

[00:12:12] Gema: That you can understand them so that they don't take you for, you know, this is a training person that doesn't understand anything about cybersecurity. Why should I speak to you now about this? This is very complicated. So you have to go with a humble point a little bit, but you also have to prove that, you know, so that's one challenge which I loved because for now, one of my best experiences, I, I, well, most of the very, very good experiences I, I've had with, uh, other colleagues were, was with technical colleagues.

[00:12:41] Gema: They're, they're amazing. You can learn so much from them. But you also have the client side, which is another completely different side of the business. And then you also have the management, which in some cases they can be technical or they can understand the technical side, but in some others, they only understand the economical side.

[00:13:00] Gema: So it's, you're all the time communicating with very different groups of people. And I think for me, it, it was. Very good to create some, some basis on my experience so that in the future I know perfectly how to communicate with, with different groups. I think it was the thing that is more difficult about this rather than the communication side would be the image they have of me or the image I think people have of me because it's also a lot what I think or what I think they're gonna think on many occasions.

[00:13:30] Gema: I think that because we, you, you come from training or from awareness, you dunno. Much about cybersecurity and I was, I think I've mentioned it a lot of time to, to Zoe and to my previous colleagues that one of my, of the most difficult interviews that I've ever done was to work in Canon as information security awareness lead.

[00:13:48] Gema: It was, I had many technical questions that, um, I wouldn't expect from that role, but I also liked it because I could prove, Hey, I know about this and I'm a good person, I'm a good, uh, choice for this. For this position. So I would say that's the thing that was more, more difficult for me to prove that you really know about this and to prove it to myself as, as well, kinda So, yeah.

[00:14:11] Zoe: I really like the one comment you made about how, um, your most difficult interview actually turned out to be almost validating. Yeah. Because interviews are scary. Interviews are stressful, and I think earlier in my career I was always so worried about failing an interview that I forgot actually.

[00:14:30] Zoe: Interviews can help you grow and help you learn. And they can also be a really good tool to see, is this the right position for me based on how they interview. So I really liked the comment you made about how, even though it was really difficult, it proved that you deserve to be there because I think personally, I wouldn't feel that way.

[00:14:51] Zoe: I would be like, oh, that was so, so difficult. What if I'm not good enough? So I'm curious on is it a mindset thing or is it like something you actively kind of try to retrain the way you think about challenges? I want to learn. So tell me, 

[00:15:07] Gema: I'm not sure. You're the, I'm the right person to teach or you want to learn from.

[00:15:12] Gema: But for me, yeah, I have, I have this challenge thing all the time. Rather than being scared to fail in an interview, I'm, I'm very scared of disappointing all the time and for me, an interview is always something that's, I dunno the other person. So I, I cannot disappoint them, really. I just don't know them.

[00:15:31] Gema: So, yeah, I'm going to try, I'm going to see if, if you like me, I'm going to see if I like you because now I'm, I'm learning as well. So when you do other interviews, you learn that you are also interviewing the other person. You're interviewing, you're, you have to ask about the, the environment and about the things that are important to you at work and yeah, all these things.

[00:15:48] Gema: I, I actually asked a lot of questions, but yeah, I, I think I have that as is. I cannot fail there because it. There's no relationship yet. There is, there is nothing. I'm not that job. I'm not, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, something else will come and it wasn't a good opportunity. Probably.

[00:16:04] Gema: Maybe they, like, they didn't like me for another reason. So, yeah, for me, I felt like, um, I liked being able to prove so many things, but I, it also showed me how much the other person knew. Which is something that I personally care a lot about. Some people don't care so much about the the managers and about the managers of the managers and how the organization works in terms of cybersecurity.

[00:16:25] Gema: For me, it's something that is super important. I want to have someone above me that I admire, that I know, that knows a lot more than me or knows how to do things much better than me. Even if they don't have more knowledge about something, maybe they, they have more experience and they know how to do things better.

[00:16:40] Gema: So that for me works already, but I need to have a person that I know that. That it's gonna help me grow, let's say. 

[00:16:48] Chris: That makes a ton of sense. I really like that idea of, again, and this has come up before on the podcast as well, but this idea that an interview is also your opportunity to interview them, um, and, and make sure that you're getting into a position that you're gonna want to work in, that's going to, you know, be, be fun for you and that you can learn things, particularly from the people you work with.

[00:17:05] Chris: Right. So I'm sure that's not just the hiring manager, probably the team as well. And I think that probably ties in back to again, kind of the theme we've been talking about today, which is this kind of people side of technology and, and really approaching this with empathy. I mean, it sounds like, again, you know, you, you described yourself as being emotional, but I think maybe emotionally intelligent is, is an even better description.

[00:17:24] Chris: And so does that lens of, of kind of looking at things through that human centric we talked about a little bit, but you know, with empathy. Does that play into your career decisions? I mean, it sounds like it does, it sounds like the, the people you work with is just as important as the projects you work on, or, or am I exaggerating what you said?

[00:17:40] Gema: Not at all. I think you, you got my thoughts, uh, exactly as it is indeed. For me, it's super important to, to be working with people that I really admire and that are gonna help me grow. As I said, I think it also has to do with the fact that I'm not very competitive either. So you're very competitive and you're surrounded by people that are better than you.

[00:18:00] Gema: You're gonna take it as a, as a negative challenge. So yeah, it's always a competition. I want to be better than a person. I have to prove that I'm better than a person. When you take it as how lucky you are to be surrounded by people that are so much better than you, then it's when you realize and you, you really enjoy it, and you, you take time to speak with them and to learn from them.

[00:18:21] Gema: Yeah, and, and also approaching it with, with emotional intelligence, as you said, helps a lot. Sometimes there are people that know a lot about something, but they don't want to share it with you For whatever reason, they don't have the time or they don't think the conversation is going to be beneficial for them, or whatever reason it is.

[00:18:39] Gema: If you have this empathy, you can understand why isn't it working? Why is that relationship not working, why are we not benefit? Why don't have a beneficial relationship with this person? And then you understand maybe that person just. He's not interested in this, but he's interested in that. So I can just go through that, that path and, and get some information from that person or just have a professional relationship, which would be good enough for, for most people.

[00:19:06] Gema: But yeah, I think it's, for me, working with people that really can teach you so much is, is been the luckiest person in the world at work.

[00:19:15] Zoe: Well, I think that leads into one of the other things I really wanted to highlight is, I mean obviously you, you started out with translation, so you know, multiple languages.

[00:19:24] Zoe: I believe you're at Spanish, English, French, and I think you're learning Greek as well, which is really impressive cuz I can barely speak English. But, um, you've also moved a lot of countries cuz you started out in Spain and then I believe you moved to Netherlands and now you're in Denmark. From my perspective, It's been really hard.

[00:19:45] Zoe: I've also moved a lot of countries, but it's always really hard for me to integrate and kind of settle into a country, whereas viewing you and kind of knowing you I, from an outside point of view, it seemed like you're really good at integrating and really good at settling into you different ways of working different cultures, and I would love to get some insights on how you do that and things that maybe have worked well for you in the past and things that maybe haven't worked so well.

[00:20:14] Gema: Um, well, one of the things that is important here, I think is, um, also inside, um, everyone, I would say I've met many people that moved to the Netherlands, and then I spoke to them and they told me how bad the experience was, how unfriendly that people are, and how difficult the language is. And the food is super bad and the weather is super bad.

[00:20:36] Gema: Of course, if you move from Portugal, To the Netherlands thinking that you're gonna find what you have in the, in Portugal, in the Netherlands, you're gonna have a problem there. So you have to move with an open-minded, always. You have to like it. I think I, I really, really like knowing about other cultures and, well, I've, I've spoken with Zoe many, many times and I've asked you a hundred questions about when you were living here and when you were living there, and how, how is it and how's the culture and.

[00:21:06] Gema: Because I'm interested. I'm, I really like, I like the personal side again, of everything. I like seeing how people think and seeing how Dutch people can, can seem di direct for Spanish people because we're not direct, but that can be good, that, that can be, that can be bad at the same time. Because at at work, I've always felt in the Netherlands that people have told me the truth.

[00:21:27] Gema: People were more honest to me because they would say the good and the bad things. In Spain saying the bad things is more difficult. So sometimes you, you would be doing something wrong and nobody tells you, which is not very useful at work. So I think if you have this open mind of, okay, I'm gonna have different things in this country that I don't have in my other country.

[00:21:50] Gema: Some are gonna be better, some are gonna be worse, but you're there just to live the experience and yeah, I think that goes inside everyone. Things at work is first of all that having that, that open mind. Not comparing. I think that's super important. If I start comparing, I wouldn't live in Denmark or I wouldn't have lived in the Netherlands or Germany because of course the sun in Spain is much better and the food is much better and my family's there.

[00:22:15] Gema: And if you start comparing, you're probably never going to to enjoy it a hundred percent. But it's the same as if I compare my sister to my mother. I dunno, it's, I love both of them the same. They're very different. I'm not gonna compare them. I'm gonna enjoy them differently as well. But yeah, having, having that open mind, not comparing and if you can take some time to learn about the culture and the country and the people, that helps a lot as well.

[00:22:43] Zoe: I also wanted touch on public speaking. It's kind of a shift from what we were just talking about, but. I remember when we were working together and I saw you present at the Information Security Forum, world Congress, I think is what it's called. I was really, really impressed with your presenting style, but I remember you telling me that you're actually new to presenting and public speaking.

[00:23:04] Zoe: So I'm curious on, um, why you did that and what your thoughts are on how to kind of do that a bit more. For people that are maybe more nervous in starting out. Cuz as I said, not only were you speaking non-native language, you know, that's gotta be scary, but also was one of your first presentations, if I remember correctly.

[00:23:22] Zoe: So I was very impressed.

[00:23:24] Gema: Thank you. I'm very flattered. I don't think it went so well, but I, of course, I would see all the mistakes that I made and all the times that I stopped and, but yeah, it's, it was indeed one of the first times I spoke publicly. Also in person, not, not the first, but, uh, yeah, I, I spoke like three more times.

[00:23:45] Gema: Four in person, two of them in big events, all the rest in smaller, um, situations. Also, the, not being a native speaker made me super nervous. Because you, if you don't come up with a credit with a word, then you can be com completely blocked because as a word you have in your mind and you know it in the other language and in the other language, it's all the same as in this language.

[00:24:08] Gema: And you can get nervous and then it stops the flow and yeah, it's, it's a fear that I always have when I speak in public. But I also understand that when you work in international environments, people are more understanding and as long as you adjust your accent a little bit so that you can be understood, they're gonna.

[00:24:27] Gema: Yeah, they're, they're not gonna be so strict on, you didn't pronounce this s or this pronoun doesn't go with this noun, or, yeah. Okay. Whatever. I have to say that a very, very, very important thing. I dunno if I, I think I mentioned to you Zoe, at some point is having role models. Unfortunately, I would say as a woman, I don't have so many role models.

[00:24:52] Gema: So when I came in the world of cybersecurity, I saw some people, I. And they were amazing technically. So of course I'm never gonna be like these people because I'm not a technical person. So what, what can I give to the world of cybersecurity? What can I share with the community if I'm not a technical person?

[00:25:09] Gema: But then I heard you speaking about many other things, like how important relationship and communication is in cyber security as well, which I would never think of that not coming from, from a technical background. I would never understand. Wow. Yeah, indeed. This is important because for me it's also, I.

[00:25:26] Gema: Like, uh, something basic. I come from communications. Of course it's important. I also saw Jessica Barker many times on LinkedIn and well, not the YouTube channel and everything, and it's a real inspiration because indeed she shares things that in the past, I would think, yeah, they're very basic. Why would I share this?

[00:25:44] Gema: But then if you're able to communicate in the way she does very clearly with examples and. Then it can really help many, many people that they don't know it or they know it, but they don't know how to structure it in their heads or they don't understand how to make the relationship with other topics.

[00:25:59] Gema: But you expl explain it so clearly that yeah, it's, it's not only that you're able to share many, many technical aspect of something, but it's about sharing many other things that are important. Not being scared, but I think that's something that you cannot help. You're gonna be scared. That's it. That's live as well.

[00:26:19] Gema: Yeah, I think I also, I was lucky as well that in the past I've been always speaking in public in Spanish, so that helped a lot. That okay, I've been in front of an audience, not in English, but Okay. How much, how, how, how bad can it be? Yeah. Also the same as we said with the interview. When you want to present in a conference or in in a Congress or something, they're gonna.

[00:26:44] Gema: Speak to you, and they're gonna see if you're a candidate or not. So if they chose you, it's for a reason. You have to believe a little bit in, in yourself. 

[00:26:51] Chris: Again, I, I really like that aspect of, of kind of trusting to, to some degree I get trusting the gatekeepers, right? Because there are, in so many aspects of our lives, there are these gatekeepers.

[00:26:59] Chris: And, and I think you're right that so many of us get hung up on impressing the gatekeepers versus realizing, oh, they already said yes. Like they already let me in the door. I'm already on stage. I'm already in the interview. Yeah. That, that, you know, trusting their instincts as well as your own is, is, is super important.

[00:27:12] Chris: I think. Unfortunately, that is about all the time we have for today. Uh, so we'll have to leave it there for now. Gema, are there any projects we have not mentioned yet that you'd like the imposter syndrome network to know about? 

[00:27:25] Gema: Um, no, not really. I'm, I'm working again on my blog. I have a blog, uh, focused on people development But it's in Spanish.

[00:27:33] Gema: So what I'm working on now is in translating it into English and creating content in, in both languages so that I can. Make it accessible for more people. Awesome. But I'm working on it, so it will come soon probably. 

[00:27:45] Chris: Very cool. That, that's fantastic. I love that cuz I would take a much longer to read it in Spanish than I will in English.

[00:27:50] Chris: So, uh, thanks for that. And also thank you so much for, for coming on the show and sharing your story with the Imposter Syndrome Network. And thank you to all of our listeners. For your most valuable time and attention. If you found this episode insightful or interesting, please consider paying it forward by letting others know about this show and the great guests we have on. 

[00:28:10] Chris: Now, Gema, before we totally closed down, you know, I know we, we didn't touch on this exactly, but you know, you worked at two of the big fours, um, as far as a big, big consulting companies, which is a pretty big achievement for folks.

[00:28:21] Chris: You are nominated. For most inspiring women in cybersecurity in 2022, which is also fantastic amongst all of that. And you, you touched on this a little bit, kind of being less technical or, or coming at this from a non-technical viewpoint. Um, but with all of this kind of, you know, career success you've had, do you ever feel like an imposter?

[00:28:39] Chris: And if so, what do you do when you feel that imposter syndrome kicking in? 

[00:28:44] Gema: Yes, I feel it almost every day. And to me, some of the things that help, first of all, as I mentioned already, it's people around me when I have, when I'm in a moment in which I'm, I don't think I can do something, and I speak with some friends or some colleagues or my partner and they, they just make me sit and say, Hey, Gema, realize that you did this and this and that.

[00:29:10] Gema: And then I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe I did this something. Um, So people help me a lot. And I would say also that the mindset of realizing that when you're, you feel like an imposter is a great opportunity. To learn and to grow. I think that's thing that, uh, helped me most, um, in my career. 

[00:29:30] Chris: Awesome. I love that advice.

[00:29:32] Chris: And, uh, with that we'll be back next week.