The Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast

Eric Bell

July 25, 2023 Chris & Zoë Season 1 Episode 52
The Imposter Syndrome Network Podcast
Eric Bell
Show Notes Transcript

One year's worth of weekly ISNP episodes - it's episode 52! To celebrate, we chat with Eric Bell, the founder and managing partner of Baxtel, a company that helps enterprises find data center space or as he calls it “a Yelp for data centers”.

Eric tells us how he discovered his passion for tech and how he overcame the challenges of starting his own business. He also shares his tips on how to deal with a dysfunctional team and how to find meaning in your work.

We explore what the words “interconnection, data center, and cloud” mean to him and why he uses them as his banner on LinkedIn. He explains how they relate to his vision and mission for Baxtel and the industry.

The internet is just a collection of private networks. And they all have to meet someplace.   
These are physical networks of fiber that crisscross the country and continents and underseas, and they eventually meet physically in certain buildings.
The internet lives within these buildings.

Eric's Links:  


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[00:00:00] Chris: Hello imposters. Welcome to the Imposter Syndrome Network podcast. This is where we all belong, especially those of you who think you don't. My name is Chris Grundmann and I'm here as always with the one and only Zoe Rose SecOps. Hi, this is the Eric Bell episode. It's also episode number 52, which technically, if not practically, is our one year anniversary.

[00:00:37] Chris: We've got a one year worth of content put out at weekly shows, so that's cool. You're gonna love it though, because Eric Bell is on it. Eric is a friend of mine who's been involved in internet infrastructure interconnection and peering for over 20 years. During which time he's worked for several of the heavyweights in the space; Switch & Data, Equinix, CoreSite, some names you might recognize, and he's now founded his own company, Baxtel, over eight years ago.

[00:01:03] Chris: Hi Eric. Would you like to introduce yourself a bit further to the Imposter syndrome network? 

[00:01:07] Eric: Sure. Congratulations on the, on the one year, anniversary. I'm glad that you invited me along. Although, when you first reached out to me to invite me on, I thought that finally you found me out, like I was finally found out that I was invited onto the Imposter, uh, syndrome Network podcast. But thank you. I'm, and I'm, of course, I'm joking. Thank you for having me on. 

[00:01:28] Eric: Introducing myself. Yeah. Right now I am, uh, running Baxtel, uh, you know, start out network engineering and worked for data centers, kind of combine networks and data centers together, kind of focused on interconnection and attracting peering ecosystems within the data center companies that I worked for at the time, that was kind of my role. But now I, I, you know, operate Baxtel, which is, uh, effectively, uh, a, a bit like a Yelp for data centers. It helps enterprises find data center space. So, uh, continue to kind of evolve that as we go. And that's, that's a little bit about me.

[00:02:05] Chris: Great. Let's dive in. As you mentioned, right, that kind of intersection there between networking and data centers is where you've kind of lived, um, a lot of your career. And as we were preparing for this episode, I noticed that your LinkedIn profile banner actually says Data centers interconnection and cloud.

[00:02:21] Chris: Obviously we're friends, we work in very similar areas, so I think I know what that means. But at the same time, lots of our listeners are either newer to digital infrastructure and or focus on other areas of it. So to start us off today, maybe you can describe what those three words or terms mean to you and how they're related to each other.

[00:02:41] Chris: And maybe also why you chose them as your defacto title on LinkedIn. What is data centers interconnection and cloud combined mean? 

[00:02:49] Eric: Yeah. Interesting. You know, you, I, I chose this long time ago, but it, it's simply, you know, the internet is just a collection of private networks and they all have to meet someplace.

[00:02:58] Eric: And so these, these are physical networks, a fiber that crisscrossed the country and continence and, and underseas and they eventually meet physically in, in certain buildings. Right? And so that's the interconnection piece. And so these buildings, there's, there's a couple in every major metro, they're interconnection facilities or peering facilities.

[00:03:20] Eric: And it, it's where networks meet. Interface with each other. So for example, uh, Comcast, which a lot of people have in the us, uh, for, for cable modems, for example, if you send an email to a Gmail user, it will likely go through, through one of these buildings. You know, it'll physically, you know, Comcast and Google physically interconnect around the states and perhaps around the, around the world.

[00:03:45] Eric: Yeah. That, that's where the intersection between, uh, interconnection and data centers are and, and the cloud. Is, is effectively someone else's computer. So the, the cloud, you know, is effectively warehouses or, you know, data centers or warehouses with a lot of electricity and cooling. And the internet lives, or the cloud lives within these buildings, right?

[00:04:08] Eric: Um, maybe not necessarily the places where networks interconnect, but there are other data centers out there that are just large industrial buildings filled with rows and rows, uh, of servers. 

[00:04:20] Zoe: That's really interesting. I, I, I, uh, years ago I got to work with a, um, I S P worked with, uh, the internet exchange.

[00:04:27] Zoe: And I think it's confusing to a lot of people that the internet has to be connected, but it's almost like. How is it actually connected? We know there's cables, but that's about as far as I think a lot of people know. So it's cool to hear the kind of more in depth workings. So I have a question about, um, Chris mentioned you are the founder and managing partner of Baxtel.

[00:04:50] Zoe: We speak with a lot of entrepreneurs. I know that Chris is an entrepreneur. I very long ago did my own little journey as well. But I am curious from your perspective, what's the best part of being an entrepreneur? And what's the most challenging part? 

[00:05:05] Eric: Yeah, those are good questions. The best part for me, I'm, I'm a naturally curious person, so I'm always fiddling and, and trying to understand new things and reading about new technologies and, and that sort of thing.

[00:05:18] Eric: And so it allows me to kind of, you know, you kind of wear a lot of hats and so it allows me to wear a lot of hats and kind of stretch my mind in those directions. Anywhere from running a company to, to understanding different technologies, right? You can dive in and really stretch yourself. So, for example, when I first started, uh, Baxtel, I, I didn't know I, I knew how to configure routers back in the day, but I didn't ever configure, you know, a, a website.

[00:05:45] Eric: So I used it as a way to learn how to program. And granted, you know, programming is a little bit like standing on the shoulders of giants where, you know, you, you configure with frameworks. But it's still, nonetheless, I use it as an exercise to learn how to program. That's how I started, and it was more of a nights and weekends project, but I found that always within companies, I would find myself.

[00:06:04] Eric: I don't wanna say taking on too much stuff, but I would always get involved with almost too many things and spread myself too thin. And, uh, the same is true. Founding your own company or, or running your own company. Right. And, and we're, we're really small. Uh, yeah. So that, that, that I think is a fun part of, of the entrepreneurial journey is doing a lot of things.

[00:06:26] Eric: It gives you license to. License to set your schedule to some extent. Right. And that's one of the reasons why I did that, right. I was going through a divorce back then, it was a difficult divorce, and it allowed me to spend more time with my kids when I needed to, right? I could work harder on Saturday and Sunday when I didn't have the kids.

[00:06:48] Eric: And then if I had the kids on Monday, than I could, you know, perhaps work part-time on that, on that day, right. You know, to, to drive him to school and back or, or or whatnot. And so it allowed me more flexibility from that perspective. What is, and then the second part of the question was, what is challenging about it?

[00:07:06] Eric: I think since effectively, um, I outsource a lot, you know, I have other people who help with Baxtel and I, I, I run folks with, you know, I project manage, uh, the folks that I, that I outsource to. Um, but outside of that, I feel like I miss the corporate community, uh, to some extent and, and spending almost every day with people.

[00:07:30] Eric: Granted, I think in corporate life you get tired of meetings all the time. You know, you sometimes you're back to back to back all day with meetings. Um, but sometimes when you're outside of that, you miss it or, or, or talking, uh, with people in the office if you go into the office, right. That I, I miss because I really have to then seek it out.

[00:07:48] Eric: You know? 'cause I'm, I'm here in my office alone, you know, all day if, if I design it that way. Right. You know, I really have to seek out meeting with other people.

[00:07:57] Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that, yeah, that, I mean, I hear that from a lot of people, right? Especially folks who are more naturally extroverted or who really draw energy from other people, you know, being in the buzz of, of being around people.

[00:08:08] Chris: I know some people who are kind of solopreneurs who, or, or, or you know, entrepreneurs at small companies that don't have offices or just remote workers, right? Go to cafes or, or things like that to kind of just have that buzz around them. But you still don't get that kind of like team comradery from just having the noise and the people around you, which is, which is tough to recreate, like you said, outside of a big company.

[00:08:26] Chris: Right. Of course. The other side to, you know, being on a team, like in a corporation or, or, or somewhere else, is that not all teams are, are great to be on. Have you ever been part of a dysfunctional team? 

[00:08:38] Eric: Yes. I think if you've been in the corporate world long enough, or any organization long enough, you'll find disordered teams for sure.

[00:08:47] Chris: What did that look like? How do you know you're part of a dysfunctional team? 

[00:08:51] Eric: I think it sometimes comes down to the, the leadership, right? You know, so when the leadership is dysfunctional or the leadership has a low emotional maturity, if you will, I think that causes the team to start to become dysfunctional.

[00:09:09] Eric: I, I think, I think those, those type of things lead to dysfunctional teams is, is it comes from leadership. You know, obviously you sometimes have bad actors on any team, you know, that can kind of make it hard on others. But I think a good manager or a good leader would, would kind of start to manage through that and, and, and kind of rectify that.

[00:09:32] Eric: But when you have a bad or a dysfunctional leader, that's, that's when things go into disarray. And then you, you sub niches, you know, pitted against each other within that team or, or between teams. Right. And it becomes really political. 

[00:09:45] Zoe: Yeah. No, I've, I've, I've had unfortunately had those sort of experiences before.

[00:09:50] Zoe: I've had really good ones as well, but I've had dysfunctional ones. I think the hardest part for me was recognizing that it was an environment that was not leading to my success Will say. Recognizing that it wasn't just my fault, that like there was an actual reason I was failing. I think that was my hardest, uh, challenge.

[00:10:10] Zoe: One thing I was thinking is like recognizing that you're in a challenging environment and then figuring out where to go next or how to resolve it. Potentially, I mean, sometimes it means leaving the team, but do you have any advice about ways that people can identify if maybe this isn't you only, maybe there's something bigger going on, and also maybe figuring out how, how to move forward from there?

[00:10:37] Eric: I think it's important to have good confidence, you know, meaning other people that might be close to the situation that you can kind of talk through. It's not about like, It's really easy to start gossiping. You know, you go to the bar and you, you, you start to, uh, you know, complain about your boss or about these other team members all the time.

[00:10:55] Eric: And, and, and sometimes it devolves into that. But I think it's important to, to have someone to bounce ideas off of and, you know, to, to understand maybe, is it me? Maybe it's me who's causing this issue, or perhaps understanding that it is this other situation and getting insight into that, you know, kind of collaborating with others, right.

[00:11:13] Eric: I think that's one key thing, I know that a mistake I made in my career was sometimes gritting my teeth and, and just trying to ride it out. And that sometimes there are times to ride it out and there's other times to, to cut the line and, and, and move on. And I think there's a time in my career that I, I should have cut the, cut the line and moved on to a new situation, either to a new department or, you know, exterior of the organization.

[00:11:43] Eric: Because it, I start to internalize it in that case and it, it affected me and my personal relationships and my family and stuff like that. It started, I started to bring it home and that is when it starts to become unhealthy, I think. 

[00:11:54] Chris: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, I think, and definitely I like the point that, you know, having that ability to, to self-reflect, Whether that's, you know, with someone else or maybe in your own internal dialogue, whatever it is for you.

[00:12:05] Chris: You know, are we the baddies? Like, I think it's, uh, you know, so sometimes you are, and it's good to be able to ask that question and, and recognize like, no, no, uh, this isn't, you know, someone else's fault. This is, this is mine. Or to also, it's just as powerful to recognize, no, this has nothing to do with me.

[00:12:18] Chris: This is the situation that I'm in. And, and maybe that means I should look for an exit or, or try to change it, right? What, depending on the situation, but knowing that, I think, and asking that and, and being open to that because I know for me, I spent a, a long time, probably at least, I don't know, maybe the first 10 years or so of my career, you know, just pushing forward and, and really not paying attention to that stuff.

[00:12:40] Chris: Not paying attention to whether I was being, you know, maybe rude or, or not getting stuff, not paying attention to the other people were putting me in toxic or, or, or negative situations and, and, and setting me up for failure. Just not paying attention to that. Just saying, okay, this is the job to be done and I'm gonna do that job period.

[00:12:56] Chris: And just, you know, churn forward. And I wasn't asking those questions, 

[00:13:00] Eric: right. Yeah. So I think I, you know, I agree with you, but sometimes pushing ahead might not be the best course of action. You know, I think sometimes you have to work with others. And I know that, um, the points in my career, you know, some, sometimes things get political, and I, I found that sometimes, and this is probably the mistake, sometimes you have to hold your, you know, you have to stand up for yourself, right?

[00:13:20] Eric: But also at the same time, In retrospect, I, I look back and I wish I would've collaborated more with folks that maybe I didn't get along with. Maybe, you know, go out to lunch with them or dinner and understand their perspective a little more. I think in retrospect now that has been, you know, 10 years or so, or more, um, I wish that I would've done that more with the folks that made it difficult at the time.

[00:13:48] Zoe: I, I started working very young and so I'm used to kind of the corporate environment where you don't always like the people you work with. You sometimes do and you're lucky, but you don't always. And so it's kind of natural for me to kind of take a step back. I don't have the most amazing social skills, so it's, it's actually more easy for me to step back and say, well, I don't need to be a friend.

[00:14:12] Zoe: Um, I just need to work together. But I think that's something that maybe isn't made clear. Do people coming into industry that just because you are not gonna be best of friends with somebody doesn't mean that you can actually, you know, you're not gonna learn a lot from them. Some of the people I learned the most from, I didn't necessarily like that much.

[00:14:34] Zoe: So I think that's a really good point. If we were to fast or no rewind, opposite direction. Rewind, what was your very first job and did it? Direct where you're going now or was it kind of a entry point that you ended up, I don't know, just going in very opposite directions. 

[00:14:55] Eric: Very first job, uh, was working. I think I had a lifeguard job.

[00:15:00] Eric: Uh, but outside of that it was, and I was a little boring just watching people in the pool. But, uh, it was at Subway, it sort typical high school type jobs, right. And working at Subway making sandwiches. And that made me understand that I'm not made to make sandwiches. I'm not made to be in that type of area.

[00:15:18] Eric: That's just not how I'm, I am or how I'm built. Right. Uh, it made me go to college and, and kind of figure something else out. 

[00:15:25] Chris: So you mean you're, you're a lifeguard. You're sitting there watching folks, other kids in the pool and stuff, and then you end up at Subway, you're, you're a sandwich artist. Maybe not a good one or, or just, you know, just don't like it that much.

[00:15:36] Chris: And then how does that, how do you go from sandwich artist to, I think where was, um, what was your first job in tech and how did you get, you know, what, how did that transition happen there? Was that there a college involved or was it just kind of stumbling into a new job? Or, or was it very intentional?

[00:15:50] Eric: It was intentional, but it was not direct.

[00:15:53] Eric: So I had a business degree. I was doing some other odd jobs right in, in, in business. And, uh, this is actually in, in 99, 1999. And so it, it was a while ago, but this is when the first internet boom was happening. And I, you know, all the cool kids were getting into this thing called the internet and that it was so new and, and, and booming at the time.

[00:16:15] Eric: And so I took a few courses. I took a, actually a computer course. You know, uh, and I took a Cisco certification course. So I went through and started to get certified from a Cisco perspective, and I landed in a call center for Time Warner Telecom. It was eventually turned to TW Telecom, which is eventually bought by level three, uh, which became, uh, CenturyLink and then Lumen.

[00:16:39] Eric: So there's so, so many ways that, that the company has been acquired. But I landed in the call center there. So it was really intentional that I. I was like, I need a, a career change, you know, a business degree, but I'm gonna build these technical skills. And at the time, and I think it's still somewhat true now, that if it, it, particularly in new fields that are just emerging, maybe perhaps like ai, that you can learn that skill on the side and then enter the industry.

[00:17:06] Eric: And, and that's, that's effectively how I did it. And I spent probably only like three or four months within the call center and I was studying actually then for the, the CCNP. And I had my book open and that sort of thing. The chief architect would come and walk by often when I was working on the second shift, and he would see that I was studying and I'd ask questions and that sort of thing.

[00:17:24] Eric: And I was quickly plucked out of the call center myself and another guy, and became his kind of apprentice in a way. You know, the chief architect almost leapfrogging a bunch of other kind of network engineers who've been there much longer and probably more talented. But he wanted to train up someone you know from scratch in his image.

[00:17:42] Eric: And it was a, it was a great career launching point, but it was, to answer your question, moving into the industry was very intentional and I, I kind of, I was lucky, but I also kind of made my own luck in the way that I, you know, kind of directionally pushed myself into a, an area and, and, and studied in, in that area.

[00:18:00] Zoe: I like, I like the point you made about that you, you know, it was intentional, but you did start somewhere like, it's not, sometimes I get people saying, oh, how can I get into security? I wanna go directly into security, which is where I work. And I say, you know, actually, you don't have to go directly into security.

[00:18:17] Zoe: You can, like, a lot of people start at call centers. I started from networking. I, I did not start intentionally in security. So I think that's a really good point of we'll get into, The general direction you wanna go, but study on the side as well, which is great if you are, you know, as you said, if you are looking into emerging technologies.

[00:18:37] Zoe: 'cause it's not always, you can just build your career off of what's out there at the moment. It might be something you work towards. And having those foundations is really beneficial. So, okay, if we get to. You were kind of working directly with, I think you said, the architect. So would you say that they became more of a sponsor for you or a mentor in your career?

[00:19:00] Eric: Yeah. He, he was, um, he was brilliant. He knew his stuff, but also sometimes when you have a, a chief architect who is, is, is brilliant and, and, and that sort of thing. They can kind of become a little fiefdom and, and be, you know, there's always these technologists that are hard, difficult to work with. And he was characterized in the organization as such.

[00:19:20] Eric: But nonetheless for me, he was, you know, a mentor and I, I learned a, a, a bunch from him. Uh, it was like drinking from a fire hose at the time.

[00:19:30] Chris: And since we both, we share, uh, a, a, a lineage of, uh, time Warner Telecom slash TW Telecom slash all the other things, and I have to do the same thing when I, when I talk about it.

[00:19:38] Chris: I might have to ask you for that gentleman's name, um, when we're not on the air. I'd be interested, I think I know who it is, but I'd be interested to find out for sure. Has mentoring like that been, been part of your career outside of that particular relationship? Or, or it's not really been a big deal for you?

[00:19:52] Chris: I mean, and, and and either way. Right. Have, have you been a mentor through the years or have you mostly worked kind of on your own or, or, you know, and have you been mentored or sponsored, or have you even seen a difference between the two? 

[00:20:02] Eric: I think so, not in an official sense. I, I typically pick out, uh, folks in both, both ways, right.

[00:20:09] Eric: And sometimes, yeah, it's never beneficial on either side. On both sides. Like I'll, even now I have a standing call scheduled, like every month I'll meet with a few, you know, a couple different guys, right? You know, and we'll, we'll talk through stuff here. Here's what we're doing, you know, here, how was your last month?

[00:20:27] Eric: You know, what were you doing? And, and kind of bounce ideas off of him, uh, or, or both of them actually. And the same thing, you know, particularly when I was a corporate. You know, I think that I underestimate my role in that, but. There are times that, that, yeah, I did mentor, mentor folks, never in an official sense or a part of an official mentoring program, but it's really me seeking out those folks or seeking out folks that would mentor me.

[00:20:55] Eric: Right. You know, in the informal way. Or me seeing people with aptitude and desire and then really just having good conversations with them. Uh, you know, so they continued conversations. 

[00:21:08] Zoe: That's a fair point. A lot of the people that were quite impactful in my career, it was never really official, you know, I'm working with you in this structure.

[00:21:16] Zoe: It was more, as you said, impactful conversations and uh, just chatting. You know, I've had quite a few people that I've massively looked up to and they, just taking the time to have a chat with me is, was hugely beneficial. 

[00:21:33] Zoe: In your career. 'cause it's been quite, quite a lengthy career. What would you say was your greatest achievement or maybe the, something that you were most proud of?

[00:21:41] Zoe: Uh, it doesn't have to be a big thing, but something that made a difference to you. 

[00:21:46] Eric: So outside of Baxtel itself Right. You know, kind of looking more towards a corporate career, like a special role was I was a interconnection product manager at Equinix and there, you know, help to manage, you know, peering exchanges and cross connects and, and that sort of thing as, as a product.

[00:22:04] Eric: One of the time, you know, this is, this is, uh, going back a long ways, but, uh, we established internet exchange in Paris. It was a fun, fun exercise. You know, there's another exchange that was, was consolidating at the same time, so it was a little competitive at that time. But it was a, it was a great learning experience about dealing with envisioning this and then establishing it and dealing with different cultures, that sort of thing in, in Europe and just trying to.

[00:22:34] Eric: Trying to attract people to that exchange. That is one that, that was probably the most interesting, uh, or, or one of the, the interesting project that I worked on that I was proud of. 

[00:22:46] Zoe: All right. Well, on the flip side of that, obviously careers are made up of high and lows mediums as well. Um, but uh, is there a situation you could think of that, you know, you're like, oh, I really failed at this one, or, I really should have approached that differently and.

[00:23:03] Zoe: How did you overcome it? It could be like a specific example. It could be a a, a mindset, anything really. 

[00:23:10] Eric: I think good. Just going back to that example that I provided earlier, without getting into names and stuff like that, but where I felt like the company itself and the team itself changed from a political perspective.

[00:23:21] Eric: Different people came in, leadership came in, and I just didn't thrive in that environment and I should have seen it and then moved on. Instead, I try to change it or fight against it, or just be, uh, you know, just have it bother me more than it should, right? Because it, in the end, it careers are important, but I think that earlier in my career, I, I became too attached to certain things.

[00:23:48] Eric: Like a lot of people in technical fields, right? You get really attached to a certain technology or a certain, you really feel strongly that it should be done this way. But there's more than one way to do things, you know, from a technology perspective or just in life. And I wish that I had more openness to see different paths.

[00:24:08] Eric: So those, those two things, number one, leaving that, that situation. And then number two, just being more open if I'm gonna stay in that situation, 

[00:24:15] Chris: makes a total of sense. Unfortunately, that's about all the time we have today. Eric, do you have any projects that we haven't touched on? I mean, obviously we'll link to Baxtel.

[00:24:25] Chris: People can check it out. I liked your description, the, the Yelp, uh, for data centers so folks know, uh, that's where they can go look for co-location services and things like that. Um, but are there any other projects or anything that the Imposter Network should know about or just, you know, where folks can find you if they wanna reach out and, and chat more?

[00:24:40] Eric: Yeah, I think the, the easiest way to find me is Eric Bell, my LinkedIn. So look for, for Baxtel, Eric Bell or, or something like that. You'll, you'll find me on there, on LinkedIn, Twitter. I'm on. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I use it more as a consuming device rather than broadcasting what I'm up to. There are other projects that I have going on.

[00:24:57] Eric: There's one in, in the, in the hopper now, but it's not, not yet public. So I don't know. It Baxtel's the main one at this point. 

[00:25:05] Chris: Cool. Well, Eric, thank you so much for joining, uh, the podcast today, episode 52, our unofficial one year anniversary. Thanks for sharing that with us, and thanks for sharing your story with the imposter Syndrome network. 

[00:25:17] Chris: Obviously, thank you to all of our listeners, especially any of you who have heard all 52 episodes. Uh, special thanks. You guys win a Gold Star, although you have to go find it and affix it to your shirt yourselves because of the way this podcast Medium works. Um, but what you can also do is pay it forward and tell others about this podcast, about this episode, if it was something insightful or informative.

[00:25:39] Chris: I think there's people out there, probably friends, colleagues, family students, et cetera. So, uh, please do share it far and wide. Now, Eric, before we close out completely, you mentioned something at the very beginning where you said, uh, that when we invited you on the Impostor Syndrome Network podcast, that you thought maybe you'd been found out as an imposter, I'm guessing.

[00:25:59] Chris: And so I, I, I assume that means that you've, at some point, felt like an imposter, maybe felt like you didn't belong somewhere, maybe felt like you weren't good enough somewhere, assuming that's true. What do you do when you feel that way? How do you deal with those feelings or how have you dealt with those feelings?

[00:26:15] Eric: I think everyone feels it. I think some people more than others, and I, I definitely feel it. I think that when I was more in corporate life or kind of entering in, I felt that a lot and I know that I dug down and studied more and more. Sometimes I would take a break and kind of, you know, not hang with them as much you, I would kind of withdraw a little bit, I know if that's good or bad, but just kind of just, I would also...

[00:26:39] Eric: I think the way I deal with it also is this, listen, like I, I listen more than I talk if I feel that way or if I feel that. 'cause you know, in the technical field, there's some people who are absolutely brilliant who know so much and, and perhaps people think that a. About me, about certain subjects. I, I have no idea, but I definitely feel that away about others.

[00:27:01] Eric: And so often listening, asking questions, and just digging in and really learning. Those are the ways I deal with it. 

[00:27:09] Chris: I like that a lot. That's fantastic. And with that, we'll be back next week.