Andy Taylor

Machines made this, mistakes and all...

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the Impostor Syndrome Network podcast, where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't. My name is Chris Grundemann, and I'm here with the pioneer of MUMSEC, our co host Zoe Rose. Hi guys! Hey! 

[00:00:25] Chris: This is the Andy Taylor episode, and I think you're going to love it. In the words of a former co worker, who now happens to be a CTO in their own right: "Andy is technically superb, his range of knowledge second to none, and he has an incredible ability to take on new technologies and concepts with apparent ease."

[00:00:41] Chris: And another former colleague said that "Andy is a strong leader who's not afraid to pursue issues and drive them forward. This combined with his broad range of technical skills and focus on automation would make him a key member of any project team, as well as an excellent candidate for any technical leadership role."

[00:01:00] Chris: Hey Andy, would you like to introduce yourself a bit for the Imposter Syndrome Network? 

[00:01:04] Andy: Yeah, I'm, I love, I'm really honored to be here. Thank you so much. And, uh, you know, luckily it's a podcast. You can't see that I'm really blushing after that. Um, and it's, it's almost ironic that, uh, you know, I'm talking about imposter syndrome and coming onto a broad audience, but, um, no, I'm really grateful.

[00:01:20] Andy: I, um, I've been in the network industry for. I don't know now, probably quite too long, uh, 25, maybe 30 years. And about, I don't know, 15 years ago, got obsessed with network automation. Normally been in large enterprise and ultimately a few, two years ago, migrated over to, to AWS where I'm a network specialist there.

[00:01:41] Andy: And again, pushing network as code for, for cloud. So, yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I'm hugely honoured given the other guests you've had on before. 

[00:01:50] Chris: Yeah, thank you. You definitely fit right up there in the pantheon here. I appreciate you coming on. One of the ways that we know each other is through your slack group cloud networking as code, which has, I think, almost 1000 members now.

[00:02:03] Chris: So first of all, kudos to bringing together such a great group of engineers. And I can say being a long time and frequent community organizer myself, I understand the work that's involved in that. And because of that, I'd love to understand your motivation a bit more. What is it that sparked the idea and drives your efforts to building and managing this group?

[00:02:23] Andy: So I think, um, community. You know, if you build a strong, vibrant community where people are free to talk and, you know, collaborate and share ideas. Good things will always come from that. If you build something great, but no community underneath it, I think ultimately it tends to die out. And, look, we all need a bit of help every now and again.

[00:02:42] Andy: Um, some, me all the most a lot of the time. But, you know, if you've got people that are like minded, we've got a vested interest in something, in this case, uh, network automation. Then you've got great people to talk to. I've met some amazing people through that. And, um, you know, hopefully other people have too.

[00:03:01] Andy: And I, I, that's all it is. It's just getting a community where, you know, people have got other people to talk to. I think the biggest driver is, um, I got into IT in a, by accident almost. And I was very, very lucky to have two mentors. One of them now works for AWS. And without them. I don't know what I'd be doing now.

[00:03:22] Andy: I certainly wouldn't be who I am today. And I, I think there's always a case of pay it forward. 

[00:03:27] Zoe: Uh, one thing I thought was interesting because we get the comments about community and how vital it is over and over again. And I mean, I, I also agree. Community is 100 percent important. But I'm curious on, um, because you have mentioned a bit about Imposter Syndrome already, pre recording this, we were chatting a bit about that, and I saw your quite blushing cheeks when, uh, when Chris gave your intro, so I'm curious on how the community and mentoring has I assume has enhanced your career and enhanced your journey through quite a, quite a vast amount of roles and, uh, quite a, quite a bit of experience.

[00:04:06] Andy: Um, so I think you get such a diverse view from people. If you, if you're helping someone else or mentoring, you know, it makes that often makes you think about things in a different perspective. I, when I was quite a bit younger, I never really kind of hugely sporty, but then I got like, like many, I saw Bruce Lee doing a Longstreet episode, funny enough.

[00:04:31] Andy: And then I became again, marginally obsessed with martial arts and I've done it for 30 years and eventually was asked to teach. And I think that was like the, the moment my stomach dropped and I was like, what, um, and I think, you know, my. My instructor at the time, which I will always have on a pedestal, said, you know, just do it and be like a swan.

[00:04:53] Andy: So look confident on the outside. And even if under the water, your legs are flapping around and you're really having a bad time. And it really helped, you know, fake it till you make it almost. And I think I've tried to carry that on when I've working with people, even if I'm really nervous about doing something, because, you know, as soon as you start talking to someone and you've got this thing in common.

[00:05:14] Andy: You tend to find that some of those, a lot of those nerves and, you know, preconceptions and everything else dissipate and suddenly you're, you've got this passionate conversation about something. And I think there's nothing more rewarding that if you can help someone in their journey, especially as, you know, I, some people that I'll always be grateful to, they helped me on mine.

[00:05:33] Andy: So, uh, yeah, I just think it's, it's, it's a, it's a lovely thing to be able to do when you can. 

[00:05:39] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I love that you mentioned the swan. Um, that's something I keep. I actually, I have a little sheet of, um, kind of my, my, my top goals and like words I want to focus on and just a little thing I look at at least once a week and try and look at.

[00:05:51] Chris: And one of the things is, it's actually a sentence I wrote like in a performance review some, you know, some years ago and my boss at the time pulled it out and like really kind of put it back at me. And so I've kept it since then. What I wrote was exceeding challenging goals by a measure large enough And in ways important enough to make people take notice, but having it look and feel effortless.

[00:06:12] Chris: But the thing is I, right after that in parentheses, I have it written "the swan" because that's exactly what it is, right? It's, it's the frantic kicking underground underwater that looks completely ridiculous, but above ground, you know, very elegant and just kind of cruising along. And I think that's, that's the goal.

[00:06:25] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:06:25] Andy: Yeah, it really, um, it really kind of resonated me when I was younger and I kind of went through that and I think it's just one of those things that it's always stuck with me. So when you have a moment where you're, you know, you're nervous, but you've got to hold your composure, it always comes back to my mind.

[00:06:42] Andy: I think it's been, it's amazing advice and it's worked well for me. 

[00:06:46] Zoe: So if we look at your current role, uh, the networking specialist solutions architect, I think I said that right? You did. I'm curious, how would you define what you actually do from a day to day? Like if we work out a typical day for you, what does that look like?

[00:07:02] Andy: Oh wow, typical day. I'm not sure there is a typical day. Um, so I think a couple of things really. So kind of the kind of official day jobs, really working with, uh, with customers to define architecture that is suitable for their requirements. We are taking into consideration growth, things coming down the pipeline and the unknown unknowns, which is brilliant because you get a lot of custom interaction and get to see how people are doing things in very different ways.

[00:07:29] Andy: We also, well I also, the small team that we are, also get to work very closely with. Um, product management in the networking space to help define some strategy and what customers really need. So that's brilliant. Um, and then the other side of it is trying to innovate. So, um, I'm very lucky that I'm working with a really small group of super passionate, friendly people where we can come up with ideas around, you know, where we think we can make a difference where there's potentially demands or gaps in the market that need filling.

[00:08:03] Andy: And it's just. And technically enabling other people and just bouncing off each other. Uh, again, I feel super humbled. They're, they're very, very bright folks, but a great team to work with. And I think with that, you kind of get you out of bed in the morning. You think, you know, I've got another challenge.

[00:08:18] Andy: This is really good. And when you have a bad day, you know, you still got those people to fall back on. Um, and it makes the world of difference. So I guess a long answer to a short question was helping customers. Uh, define strategic architecture. I've tried to look at this in like three pillars, architecture that meets business requirements, security, obviously, but then really importantly, the operational aspects, because I think when you've come from an operations up through, you know, that proverbial, uh, ladder of operations, engineering, architecture.

[00:08:54] Andy: It's really important that, you know, an architecture meets requirements, but is, is, is something that operations can, can use at the same time. And I think when you combine all of those three, then you end up with something that's, you know, it's really usable for the customer and hopefully flexible enough to adapt to as they.

[00:09:11] Andy: bring more requirements on all their business changes that, you know, you're not looking, you're not designed into a corner. 

[00:09:16] Zoe: Well, one thing that stood out to me as you're saying is you, you kind of talk about, okay, well, I do these three things, but those are major things. I've worked in consulting. Most of my career has been consulting.

[00:09:29] Zoe: And that was the biggest challenge people have is creating or designing a solution based on actual requirements. That's going to work. That's secure. And it's future proof. I'm curious about, based on your previous experience and where you are now, what, was there a defining role that really kind of set those foundations to be able to create you or put you in a position where you're comfortable doing?

[00:09:56] Zoe: Quite a challenging task at the moment, or was it a sort of a collaboration of different roles that kind of brought your journey to where it is now? 

[00:10:06] Andy: Wow, that's a great question. Um, so I think it's a collaboration really. Um, I think I've been, again, I've been super lucky that all of, pretty much all of the roles that I've, uh, I've, I've had, I've had really great people around me that have been supportive and that's really kind of laid that foundation and again, trying to.

[00:10:29] Andy: If it's a public one or it's a community within the organization you work with is to build that really open, honest environment where people can, they feel free asking questions without ridicule. They can ask for help, but also, you know, brainstorm and bring out these ideas. I think then you start getting these different perspectives on what people want, where they're stuck, and that helps you grow.

[00:10:52] Andy: So, yeah, I think really it's, it's been a case of. Working, being with people and those people giving you ideas and you remember particular ideas and we've, I've always, I've always liked being outside my comfort zone. Not too far out, but I like being out of my comfort zone. Like I'd never take a role that I could do because I'm not going to grow from it.

[00:11:14] Andy: I've always been super technically curious. I remember we had a, quite a difficult, um, upbringing and we, you know, we didn't have much of my mum and dad saved up and got a bike. And I think before I rode it, I took it apart and let's just say it didn't go down very well, but I love to see what was working, why it was working this way.

[00:11:33] Andy: Uh, and I think that really helps them with when you've got a big project and you know, you want to understand why and you can help relay that to other people. 

[00:11:42] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. And I wonder, I mean, you mentioned, you know, one of the moments and kind of, I guess the kind of the more of the, you know, martial arts kind of side of things where you got asked to be a teacher.

[00:11:49] Chris: And it seems like maybe that, that sense of, of teaching and kind of helping other people weave through a lot of what you do. 

[00:11:55] Andy: I think it's, you know, at the end of the day, We've got things, like, they're transient, they come and go. I mean, people are, are what life's about. So, you know, if you can help someone like I was helped, then, you know, you've made a difference in someone's life, and, you know, that's what life should be about.

[00:12:13] Andy: You know, I think sometimes we, we lose some of the, the personal interaction with Slack or IM clients and texts. We don't often get to talk much despite being, you know, people don't see it because I've got this kind of bravado around being loud and, and, you know, in, in everyone, but, but actually pretty shy.

[00:12:33] Andy: And, you know, I've got this kind of, as I said, imposter syndrome, which is now getting better. But I do love talking to people, um, anybody, because no matter what conversation you have, you always come away, as long as you've got an open mind, you always come away learning something. It makes you a better person for it.

[00:12:49] Zoe: I'm curious to what, uh, I suppose two sides, what was the best job you had and why, and then on the flip side, what was the worst job you had and why, and it could be, it wasn't a bad job, it just wasn't the right job for you, for example. 

[00:13:03] Andy: Um, well, best job's really hard because I think I've, I've always, as I said, I've always tried to be on outside my comfort zone.

[00:13:09] Andy: Um, so I'm always learning something, but it would have to be my first job in IT. It must be, because. I'd always worked on a, I'd actually come into this company as a temp doing customer services, picking the phone up on a help desk. And, you know, that's, that's what I did. And then bizarrely, they said, well, you know, we want you to stay on.

[00:13:31] Andy: Um, the person that was there, we let them go. So we need you to stay on. And, and that was the scope of the role. It was to pick the phone up and take some notes and pass it on to someone who helps. But it was a frontline support desk and, um, I, I really had no interest in IT, none. Working in, you know, there were RPG programmers there, there was databases, and then there was networks.

[00:13:52] Andy: I remember this is networks way back in the day, um, where networks were still, you know, not something that, you know, is so accessible as they are today. And, um, got talking to the guy that was doing the frontline support for networking and we got on quite well and I thought, this is really interesting.

[00:14:08] Andy: And then he said, you know, I'm leaving. So really? So he went up and handed his notice in, uh, and I waited a few minutes, and then I walked up and said, Wow, about this role, can I do it? And the man just said quite rightly, not a chance, you know, you don't have any background in this. You've got no training.

[00:14:28] Andy: No. I said, look, I'm sure I can do this. Just give me an opportunity to try. And they said, no, to happen. You know, the next day he said to me, look, you know, if you want to do it, we'll give it a go. Um, it's on you. And if you can't do it, then you don't have your old job back. That would have been gone. Fine with me.

[00:14:44] Andy: Let's, let's try it. And, um, I had to teach himself. And, uh, then I think that's where I met these individuals that changed my life, really. And I learn every day. And this is, I think... Because it was a while ago, it was kind of old school. So if I went down and asked the same question twice or didn't do the due diligence beforehand, I would be told, you know, on certain terms, go back up and do the work and then come back down and talk and, you know, really taught me how to, how to think about things and how to research things.

[00:15:18] Andy: Um, and I think that, I mean, it was a life changing experience. So that I really have to put that as. Job, worst job. Uh, I went for an interview, um, for a company which I shall remain nameless, and it's not on my cv, uh, because I was there for that short amount of time where they wanted everything basically, and it sounded like a great role.

[00:15:39] Andy: Um, and then I, I kind of got a job, got in there and they explained actually, you know, this is the data center and it was, was actually, you know, probably the size of a small bathroom. Uh, no, I'm not exaggerating. And uh, it's a big company. I work. And then my role turned out that I was essentially adding users to a firewall.

[00:15:58] Andy: That was it. Hang on, you really, really, really don't need me. So I wrote a document on why you don't and actually how you could not even have this role. And, uh, and left. 

[00:16:10] Chris: That's awesome. 

[00:16:11] Zoe: It sounds like you left them in a better position though. 

[00:16:14] Andy: Oh, absolutely. They didn't need someone to do it. And it was, um, it was one of those roles that...

[00:16:18] Andy: You just really could either automate or just be a little bit more sensible about how you do it and they didn't need it. So, you know, I didn't want to, A, it'd be, I'm not really good if I'm doing something that there's no mental stimulation, if I'm not trying to learn something new. Um, and it just wasn't the right thing for me.

[00:16:38] Andy: And I don't think in fairness, it was probably the right thing for them to even have. So I think it was, uh, yeah, it was a mutual, this isn't going to work out. And, uh, I, I moved on to something better. 

[00:16:48] Chris: Nice. Uh, that's awesome. So, you know, I definitely your, your story about how you started, right? That first job, that's also your favorite job where you kind of, you know, asked to be thrown into the fire and then were, and then had to figure it out on the fly.

[00:16:59] Chris: I definitely, you know, see a little bit of, of my career, my beginnings in that as well. And I'm curious for me. While it was an invigorating time and I loved it and really, really enjoyed kind of discovering networks and the Internet and learning about it. But at the same time, I always felt a little bit behind.

[00:17:15] Chris: You know, I, uh, I'm actually I'm a high school dropout. I didn't go to college and so kind of fell into networking and found my place there. But, but always was, you know, a little bit comparing myself, maybe to friends who had stuck it out in high school and gone on to college and things like that, or just even looking around me, I, I ended up at one point working at cable labs, which was like an R and D place where, you know, people had multiple PhDs and, and, and, you know, they're, uh, working alongside them and things.

[00:17:38] Chris: So I don't know if that's affected you as well and kind of getting started or having to figure it out on your own and 

[00:17:42] Andy: hugely, I mean, where I am today, there's some incredibly bright people, friends of mine are doing, as you say, PhDs or multiple PhDs. I've got an incredible track record, written books and yeah, I, um, I wasn't academic at school.

[00:17:58] Andy: If I don't really enjoy something, I, I don't, can't pay too much attention to it. And, uh, not something I was purposely going to raise on this call. And, uh, but in the, in the, the, uh, the sense of being of openness and transparency after 30 odd years, it turns out I've got undiagnosed ADHD. And. That explains so much of my childhood where I just, just couldn't sit down and study or focus, and I didn't do well at school, but if I did enjoy something, I have a passion for something, like I said, originally it was um, martial arts, I, I love it to this day still, that I would, Really hyper focus on it, you know, I'd love it and I think it was kind of my superpower and my kryptonite at the same time and it's a very fine juggling act between the two and it's only recently I found out about this and that's really helped because, uh, you know, you understand why you do things in a particular way.

[00:18:54] Andy: And you can put strategies in place to make sure that you don't fall short, but you can use kind of the superpower part of it when you need to, and the kryptonite can try and avoid. And again, even when I went through that, I was very lucky that the team I'm in currently are super supportive and, you know, that made a world of difference.

[00:19:13] Andy: But again, that really goes back to this people relationship. So I completely understand where you're from. And I think that's a really major factor, because I always thought. Well, I'm missing something. You know, I'm, I'm not as good because I, I didn't have this training. I didn't have this background. You know, what is it that I've, what is it I don't know, I don't know this, and you kind of almost get to a point where you start doubting everything, and then when you are asked to do something, I was asked to do a couple of talks, and I'd often say, look, no, because who am I, honestly, who am I to get up on the stage and say about, you know, whatever it is that, that the subject's about, there's people out there that are far better than me, and it's only recently that When I think maybe, maybe, maybe age has helped a little bit, but you kind of get to a point where you, I just think, Brene Brown has got an amazing set of books and, So she's got something on Netflix and I think some of the stuff that she's done around daring greatly, especially that she quotes the Teddy Roosevelt man in the arena speech and it really really really resonated with me both from a 90 perspective and obviously I used to compete a lot in martial arts and both of those resonated with his speech and I've watched it a few times now and I listen to audio books quite a bit and every time I listen to it I don't know.

[00:20:28] Andy: It just really resonates. I think that's really, really, really helped. 

[00:20:32] Zoe: I would agree with the age thing a bit. Because for me, as I've gotten older, it's helped me care less. I know that sounds bad, but I almost care less about people and their judgement. Because that has helped, definitely held me back in a lot of places.

[00:20:48] Zoe: I was absolutely terrified of making mistakes, absolutely terrified, which, which holds you back from succeeding, because you need to make mistakes. And I've made huge mistakes. Well, 

[00:20:57] Andy: you learn from your mistakes, right? If you don't make mistakes, you don't learn. 

[00:21:00] Zoe: Yeah, exactly. They were hugely beneficial. I took stuff down and I learned very quickly how to bring it back up.

[00:21:08] Andy: Oh, I've done that. And I've had roles before where. I've gone in, I actually didn't know too much about a particular thing, and it ends up, you know, building in a lab and understanding it, and then suddenly I feel better, but if you don't make those mistakes, like, I love watching, like, when people are doing things on YouTube, for argument's sake, and they're coding or they're building a lab.

[00:21:28] Andy: If someone goes in and builds this lab and it's flawless, you don't get that much from it. But if you go in and you see the mistakes and then the thinking and the process behind why did it go wrong, you know, what can I do to fix it? And then going on to those next steps, that's when you learn the most.

[00:21:44] Andy: So, but, but funny enough, I'll say that to someone else, but in my head, if I want to make a mistake when I was doing something, I'd be mortified. It's like, Oh no. And then, then it brings back all those feelings of actually, you know, I shouldn't be doing this. I'm not good enough. I think now that we're being, as a community, we're being far more open about these things and all kudos to you for, um, for this amazing podcast and, and kind of getting this out there for people to listen to, um, not me, but, but just generally the, the people that you do have on there is amazing because, you know, when people look up, like I have to some of the guests that you've had and think, wow, You know, I can't believe that, you know, you've struggled with this too.

[00:22:22] Andy: And I think that really helps you understand, look, you've done really well and I really respect you and you've, you've gone through this, so let's just, let's just kind of as a community move forward. 

[00:22:32] Zoe: Yeah, definitely. One thing I was going to say is, you'd mentioned a bit ago about, uh, feeling. One, not being able to make mistakes because then your confidence is impacted, but then two, kind of learning how to learn.

[00:22:47] Zoe: That was the one thing for me that, because I did go to college, I was an IT manager and then I went back to college to learn about IT. And that was actually the takeaway I had. It wasn't the content they were teaching, and I did learn some of course. A lot of it I already had hands on experience on, but it was the allowing myself to make mistakes.

[00:23:08] Zoe: Because it was a lab, it was in a school lab, so I could completely destroy the lab and it would be fine. You know, I wasn't taking down a production network. And also it was teaching me how to learn, which I think was the biggest takeaway. 

[00:23:23] Andy: I think We're not often, certainly when I was at school, we weren't taught how to learn, and that's kind of, uh, problematic, right?

[00:23:30] Andy: I was able to coast to a point, and I think, um, and I didn't really study for the reasons we've discussed already. And then suddenly when it got difficult, I didn't really know how to study or learn or, you know, and then I, quite a bit later, I attended an online course called Learning How to Learn by Barbara Oakley.

[00:23:52] Andy: And I must admit, You know, it's a free course and I learned so much from it. I think it's one of the biggest mass online courses there is, but it's amazing and it really gives you some tips and strategies and it's something I've, I've really struggled with. And only recently, I think, you know, I admit, and this is not through being humble, but I admit that I might not be the brightest spark in the.

[00:24:14] Andy: in the toolbox, but I'm super stubborn. So if I want to, to kind of learn something, I'll put the effort in and just keep going until I get it. Sometimes it backfires because sometimes you I don't know. I didn't know when to ask for help. Um, and I'm a lot better at that now, but learning how to learn and, and asking your peers and your colleagues and about, look, I'm really stuck with this.

[00:24:39] Andy: Can you kind of help me? I've done all the due diligence. I've done all the study, but I still can't do this. I think people would be surprised how willing other people are to. Especially if it's a subject they're interested in, how willing they are then to give you their time to explain things and help you along your way.

[00:24:54] Chris: Yeah, I think that's, that's, uh, that's great advice, right? To, to, both those things, right? Learning how to learn, I think is something that I personally think everyone should focus on a lot more than we do. I wish our schools did a better job of it, to your, to your point. A lot of my schooling was just about memorization, which I hated.

[00:25:08] Chris: And so I was in a similar boat to you. I was terrible at it. If I, if I, if I knew it great, I'd do well. And if I didn't, I didn't put much effort in because, you know. Memorizing the multiplication tables just didn't really appeal to me. Uh, yeah, but critical thinking does. 

[00:25:21] Andy: We're not taught that, and that's the problem.

[00:25:23] Andy: You know, at school, we're not taught, or I certainly wasn't, you know, things like critical thinking, you know, how to study different techniques for these sorts of things, things that will really help you in your career. You know, you were, you were taught to memorize and that's it. Parrot fashion. And the second the exam was done.

[00:25:38] Andy: Gone. Well, in my case, the second the exam started, gone. So, you know, and I think that there's a lot of really good material out there. And sometimes it's just a case of either looking and getting recommendations, or if someone else is in the same boat as you and they're quite open about being in that situation, ask them.

[00:25:58] Andy: I mean, again, if people find things that have really helped them, I find most of the time they're really happy to kind of explain how it helped them. Look, maybe it'll help you. 

[00:26:09] Chris: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And especially, I think, you know, on those kind of things, I've found that if you're, if your request for help comes with a compliment, right?

[00:26:15] Chris: Like I see that you're so good at this. I see that you're doing really well with this. Can you show me how you do that? It tends to, even if they're busy and want to, you know, tell you to F off there, they usually don't, if you come at it, right. I think. 

[00:26:25] Andy: Absolutely. Yeah. But I think also, um, you know, you, and especially in this industry, if someone is passionate about what they do.

[00:26:31] Andy: I'd say 99 percent of the time, even if they're busy, they'll say, look, love to help you. Just stuck with something now, but I'll get back to you. And they will, because we love what we do. And. That passion then comes across when someone else is saying, I really want to be able to do that too. So it's very rare that someone says, no, I'm not interested.

[00:26:54] Andy: I don't think I've ever had it happen. 

[00:26:55] Chris: That's a good deal. Yeah. Well, I think that asking for help is huge. One thing that no one can help us with is that we're out of time for today. Oh, wow. That went so quickly. Yes, real quick. It was a great conversation. Andy, do you have any projects or causes that we either did talk about or haven't talked about that you want to highlight for the Impostor Syndrome Network?

[00:27:14] Andy: Only one, and I think people are probably sick to death of me banging on about this, but I think, um, Yeah, certainly for my network folks, a lot of us have come from very traditional backgrounds where You know, we've had CLI on one side, or we've had, like, actually Notepad on one side, and maybe Secure CLT on the other.

[00:27:30] Andy: We've cut and pasted, and that's been great. But, you know, as times move on, it's really about taking that risk, right? Learning how to do either coding or using a framework to start automating the boring tasks you don't want to do. You know, no one wants to come in and do the same really error prone, laborious stuff.

[00:27:48] Andy: So, get involved in the community. You'll have loads of people who want to help you. And I think it's a really exciting, great place to be right now, you know, and as a personal thing that, you know, you've kindly as part of the buyer, put the Slack group in that I'm a part of, reach out to me, I'm super happy to help anyone that would, um, is interested and wants to get involved.

[00:28:06] Andy: So yeah, ping me anytime. 

[00:28:08] Chris: Awesome. Yeah, we'll have your, your Twitter and your LinkedIn and then yeah, the, uh, the link to sign up for the Slack group as well in the show notes. So definitely take a look at those. Andy, thank you so much for sharing your story with the imposter syndrome network. 

[00:28:20] Andy: I am incredibly humbled to have been asked and I'm very, very grateful.

[00:28:24] Andy: So thank you so much. And please keep doing what you're doing. This is amazing service for people. 

[00:28:29] Chris: Thanks. Thanks. And thank you to all of our listeners for your time, your attention, and your support. If you found this episode insightful or interesting, please consider paying it forward by letting others know about this show and the great guests we have on.

[00:28:41] Chris: One more thing before we close out, Andy, I am curious, we talked a little bit about imposter syndrome and kind of where it came from and, and a little bit of how it's gotten, you know, maybe easier to deal with throughout your life. But I wonder. What do you do these days when you feel that imposter syndrome kicking in, when you, when you feel like you're out of place or, or not smart enough, not good enough, is there anything you do to, to shake it off or move past it or anything you'd share with us?

[00:29:03] Andy: So I think, um, I think there's a, there's a book with the title of Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And I think, as I said to you, like a, an instructor that I had a long, long time ago said about, you know, if you're up there in front of the class and you're, you're, you're, you're really panicking, then think about a swan, right?

[00:29:20] Andy: So the swan looks elegant, confident. Beautiful. I'm not saying I'm beautiful, but at least elegant and confident. Um, but under the water, those legs are flying away furiously. And, and I think it's a great analogy that I've always taken forward. I'm really panicking, drink something so your mouth doesn't go dry.

[00:29:38] Andy: Cause when that happens, it's all over for me. And then fake it till you make it the more success you have with that then slowly, but surely you get more confident. And I think that's something that's helped me well throughout my life. 

[00:29:51] Chris: I like it. The image of the swan will definitely be with me now, uh, in all those situations.

[00:29:56] Chris: Well, thanks a lot. Thanks again and, uh, we'll be back next week.