Slim Hamouda

Machines made this, mistakes and all:

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the Impostor Syndrome Network podcast, where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't. My name is Chris Grundemann, and this is the Slim Hamouda episode, which I think you're going to really enjoy. Slim is a freelance network automation slash net DevOps engineer from France with about eight years of professional experience.

[00:00:32] Chris: Hi, Slim. Would you like to introduce yourself to the Impostor Syndrome Network a bit further? 

[00:00:36] Slim: Hi, hi Chris. Thanks for having me. I'm so, so, so honored to be here. So as you said, I'm a consultant engineer, uh, focused on, uh, network automation in the past few years based in France. And I'm kind of excited to be here and, uh, interested in technology and, uh, leaning a lot on the, uh, automation side.

[00:00:58] Slim: Yeah. I'm so, I'm so happy to be here. Yeah. 

[00:01:00] Chris: Great. Yeah. Let's dive in. As we both mentioned there, you've built a nice career for yourself, I think, in network automation and NetDevOps. And that's really interesting to me for a number of reasons. One of those reasons is that, you know, a job title like that just simply didn't exist for probably the first half of my career, maybe even longer.

[00:01:18] Chris: So my question, though, you know, as it often is, is just why, why networking and specifically why network automation? 

[00:01:25] Slim: Yeah, just a thing about the title is something that I'm thinking about like lately on maybe the future of automation. Maybe in the future, this should only be network engineer, you know, uh, hopefully, maybe, I don't know, uh, in some kind of way, but yeah, the automation part maybe should be blend into the rest, but other now, yeah, it's a, it's a full on position, and I got into networking, uh, So it's maybe a little bit of my about my how I got into the career.

[00:01:58] Slim: So here in France There are multiple ways to get into what we call engineering schools One of them is like you do two year of heavy math and physics And then you do a national exam and after that exam depending on your rank you get into an engineering school And I chose a school that was focused on telecommunications.

[00:02:20] Slim: So in my mind, in my head, I wanted to be more on the, uh, you know, mobile phone, uh, stuff, 4G, uh, and so on. And when I got there, we had some courses about networking and I discovered networking. And slowly I found that I was more leaning toward that side. It was kind of really fun. What I wanted to explore at that moment is that, yeah, maybe this is doable as a career.

[00:02:48] Slim: So slowly, at first, I wanted to be Full on the networking side, but we learned a lot of theoretical stuff at school, uh, not enough practice. So I didn't do that much of CLI, but I knew we studied a lot about architectural stuff and how it can be done. So right out of school, I wanted to pursue that. It was harder to find networking job without enough CLI know how, but they didn't know some software stuff.

[00:03:20] Slim: Uh, we did the. We did learn that in school and that was the beginning of my career. But even though I liked software as a little project, I didn't like that much as a professional career. Uh, because the task at that time that they were given to me, there were way too far from what I liked was like financial, uh, application and so on.

[00:03:42] Slim: I, I was not really feeling the purpose. You know, that's why I leaned the, at that time I said, yeah, okay. I heard about the Cisco certifications. I didn't know about them before and, uh, it was a nice gateway. It, uh, enabled me to, like, get my real first networking job. And after that, it was like, okay, the machine was, uh, was booted on and Cisco CCNA, Cisco CCNP.

[00:04:08] Slim: And at that time, I was looking for a really heavy networking site and I discovered that there is something called network automation. And I was going through a lot of job interviews focused poorly on network engineering. And one of them proposed to me to be, Oh, you did software before. How about trying to, we are trying to build a team.

[00:04:32] Slim: How about coming through? And from there, it became my title from the last, from the past few years. Yeah, 

[00:04:39] Chris: awesome. Awesome. That's a great story. I like that. And it's definitely one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is I think that. You know, the entry points into networking and then especially, you know, network automation are definitely a little bit different than they were when, when I got involved in it, although it sounds quite similar, right?

[00:04:54] Chris: A little bit of it is just kind of falling into it. I think there's very, very few people who set out in life to become a network engineer, just because it's not something that you even know to do. Um, 

[00:05:05] Slim: Nobody talks about this when you are a child. Yeah. 

[00:05:08] Chris: Yeah. So one thing I'm interested in there, you know, we talk about this on the show occasionally right around certifications and their value.

[00:05:16] Chris: And I think the general consensus of folks we've talked to is that. Certifications are great in early career to kind of do two things right one to structure your learning and give you a path to learn the things you you probably need to know and then also to kind of demonstrate that you've done that work right to show that you have some at least basic knowledge of what's going on there but there is a little bit of debate about whether that's a truly you know personal reward or or if it's really what I mean I guess is you know in your opinion did getting the Cisco certifications like the CCNA and then later the CCNP you Did that, you know, having that certification, is that actually what kind of unlocked the door to getting a job you wanted, or was it just that it gave you the confidence to go apply for the job you wanted 

[00:05:57] Slim: a little bit of both.

[00:05:58] Slim: So as I said, I studied networking, so I knew the theory. I know OSPF, I know IP, I knew TCP and all that. I had little to no CLI applied project and that helped me. Uh, even though if I, uh, Maybe if I spend some time myself learning it without the certification, it would have helped to have been done. But this certification, yeah, it's organized.

[00:06:25] Slim: You have the chapters, you know, you know what you need to know. And you, you said the right word. It's about confidence. It gave me exactly. Yeah. Okay. Even if deep down, I had the knowledge, the certification Approved even to myself. Okay. I'm ready to go and apply. And, uh, even when I apply, I know I can confidently at least answer question when I don't know.

[00:06:52] Slim: I really don't know. 

[00:06:53] Chris: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Uh, I like that. That lines up kind of with my thinking as well. So I, you know, I think that makes sense, right? It's, it is that combination, right? There are definitely kind of the HR bots out there that are looking for certain things on a resume and won't even talk to you unless you have, you know, some boxes checked.

[00:07:07] Chris: Um, but I think a lot of it does come down to as, as you pointed out there, like that confidence tending to be key. And I liked what you brought out there that it's not just confidence in, in what you know, but also confidence enough to admit what you don't know, which I think is really, really valuable.

[00:07:22] Chris: That was definitely something for me in my early career, right? Was just, I was, I was really afraid to tell somebody when I didn't know something, cause I felt like it was my job to know. And, uh, and learning to be like, no, I have no idea how that happened. Like, we're going to go find out though. It was a valuable skill.

[00:07:36] Slim: Yeah. That's the, the tips that they gave you for, for it to be in interviews. It's like, when you don't know, say you don't know early in the career and right out of school, You want to answer all the question and that that's maybe part of the nature, but it's what we learn for the career. 

[00:07:55] Chris: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:07:56] Chris: So I'm interested in that, right? So it kind of sounds like, you know, I don't know if you had, did you, did you have a software engineering job to start out with and then kind of rolled from there back to networking or how did that timeline work out? Yeah. 

[00:08:07] Slim: My first actual job, I was in part of the software engineering team.

[00:08:12] Slim: Uh, I was doing some Java because I learned Java in school and it was some batch scripting and some proprietary software. And it was more like solving some bugs from a program that was developed by someone else. And, uh, I felt like, what am I, I am doing here? I'm just fixing something that isn't even mine.

[00:08:33] Slim: And I don't even understand what's behind it. I didn't have, like, a calling for it. I want to say, like, today I still do, I, I, I code almost every day, and it's almost the same stuff as when I was at that job, but now I understand why. I understand the purpose of the program. I, I know where I'm going and, uh, why I am spending so much time debugging a loop, or if, or whatever.

[00:08:59] Slim: And, uh, that's maybe what helps, uh, it's not the software part that is, uh, uh, begging, uh, at that time, but why are we doing this? And when you have a purpose, maybe it's more fun to do it. 

[00:09:13] Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. There's definitely a lot of evidence to that, that they kind of having that, that, that purpose and that reason and understanding the why can provide a lot more pleasure.

[00:09:22] Chris: In what we do, I mean, that's a really good point. 

[00:09:24] Slim: Yeah, I was working on a finance application. Maybe a finance guy who learns to code find it way more fun than, uh, than me at that time. And that's what's fun about networking and mostly automation because you more or less understand the problem and you kind of have an idea how to solve it.

[00:09:43] Slim: And, uh, software is, uh, is a tool. Right here. 

[00:09:48] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, maybe talking a little bit about using software as a tool and kind of in network automation and zooming forward, um, to kind of the current state right now. I believe you're you're a freelance consultant, right? So you're a network automation engineer at Carrefour, but maybe you can tell us a little bit about what it means to be a freelance consultant and kind of what that job entails or what the day to day is like.

[00:10:09] Chris: Maybe just a little bit more about what you're doing these days. Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:10:11] Slim: Yeah. So I don't know about, so the definition of freelance in France and outside of it is maybe a little different, but basically consulting is like just mostly a client that doesn't have the technical skills will call up another company that has a subcontractor.

[00:10:32] Slim: And that's what I was doing on my career. I worked as a subcontractor, as a consultant, maybe it's the same word, depending on who you ask and moving to freelancing, it was like. More or less a natural, uh, transition. It's more or less the same thing, but now I'm just on my own. And for the technical side, depending on the client, how, how we see consulting, you can be just part of the team with them and you are in the day to day and trying to solve problems together.

[00:11:03] Slim: Or you can be as a, as an outside person looking in and for me, and for maybe the best way about network automation is like, try to be part of the team as much as possible either. Inside the network operation team or as an automation team, but try to plug yourself as much as possible with the guy that has their hands on the production.

[00:11:30] Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that's, that's really valuable. Like you said, especially for. Network automation, probably for, for any automation, but, you know, being close to the people who one have the challenges that you're trying to solve. And then two are going to use the tools that you're developing.

[00:11:44] Chris: It seems like that affinity of, of really understanding well, what their day to day looks like and what their frustrations are. Would be really important. 

[00:11:50] Slim: Yeah. And that's the challenge, I think, because you need to find the right mix between, okay, the operation team knows exactly their problem and you know, some solution, but you have to come up, uh, in, uh, a healthy relationship where you can provide new solutions that they don't think about, but you have to listen enough to answer exactly to their problems.

[00:12:14] Slim: And that's some kind of a challenge I think today at big 

[00:12:17] Chris: scale. Yeah, absolutely. I recently read, I think it was an HBR, Harvard Business Review article. They kind of talked about some of this that That really, uh, at least I think it's related. Maybe you can tell me that really high performing teams actually spend a lot more time researching and analyzing and digging into the information and going back to get more information.

[00:12:36] Chris: Whereas, uh, at least according to this research, right? Lower performing teams. Jump to providing solutions right away. Um, and, and a lot of like the, in this research, the lower performing teams, not only did they kind of jump to putting together solutions faster, but then once they started looking at solutions, they didn't go back to gather more information.

[00:12:55] Chris: Right. So if somebody came up with like, Oh, well, we're not quite sure how this works. They would just kind of plow ahead. Whereas the high performing teams would stop. And say, well, let's let's learn more about that. Let's figure out why that's that way and and go back to like, you know, learning and exploring and researching or at least talking about the ideas first.

[00:13:10] Chris: And I think that lines up with what you're saying. 

[00:13:12] Slim: Yeah, and it's about level of maturity of the team. I think I was completely guilty of that at the beginning of the career to jump directly ahead, trying to find a solution. Okay, I think I understand you and spend a few days away from them and come up with something, but you realize like with maturity, I, I don't say that I have it enough today, but with maturity, I think you, um, you understand that you need more exchange and, uh, not dive, uh, I think that's one advice I can give like any new, uh, young engineer is like, don't just spend your time on the task at hand and try to have a broader, uh, broader view on the project.

[00:14:01] Chris: I like that advice a lot. Yeah. I think kind of being able to zoom out and see the bigger picture again, going back to that purpose, right? Why are you even doing this? It's an important point of rather than just like, you know, should this, you know, line of code be here or not? Sometimes that answer becomes really easy if you zoom out and look at what you're trying to do at the end.

[00:14:18] Slim: Yeah, and sometimes it's not that easy to To to take step back you are sometimes so in it something you that we learn along the way 

[00:14:27] Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. So in all of this, I mean, especially I think now as, as kind of that freelance consultant where you're coming in, you know, even if you're trying to be part of the team, you are a little bit of an outsider and you're bringing in new ideas and new solutions and things like that, maybe I don't want to assume, but I kind of have to assume that, that there's times where, um, that's gotta be a little scary or, you know, where, uh, Being that expert, at least when I've been in that situation, uh, I don't always feel like the expert, right?

[00:14:54] Chris: That's a little intimidating. Yeah. Did that happen to you as well? 

[00:14:57] Slim: Yeah. And sometime, uh, when I was working with agencies, they present you as the expert and I felt so, I didn't like it at the word I hated that word at the beginning. I'm not an expert. So wait, let's step back. It's not me. Let's talk to somebody else.

[00:15:15] Slim: And, uh, yeah, but the challenging part of like being that outside guide is like, it all comes down to confidence to gain the confidence of the, uh, your, the client, your teammates. And once you have it and the goal is to feel part of the team, even as an outsider. And as I said, it's quite common sometimes to find in the same team, multiple consultants from different companies coming together and working with the client.

[00:15:41] Slim: And, um, that's some challenge that maybe will never go away. 

[00:15:46] Chris: Yeah, I think so. There's so many things that we just have to constantly get better at and get better at dealing with, I think over time. And I wonder if, you know, aside from just the consulting thing, which I think maybe a lot of people have experience with, I wonder if those feelings of, you know, Imposterism, I guess, right?

[00:16:00] Chris: That imposter syndrome, if that is even stronger when you have this kind of cross role, right? And what I mean is, you know, you're doing networking and you're doing automation, which I think means, you know, in a lot of terms, right, you can't be completely focused on software development. You can't be completely focused on a network engineering or network design.

[00:16:19] Chris: You've got to have one foot in each. And I think a lot of times generalists can be a little, that can be again, a kind of a predicament or, um, uh, precarious situation, I guess. 

[00:16:28] Slim: Yeah, exactly. And in my first few years doing automation. I was like working really strongly with some really great, uh, network engineers.

[00:16:38] Slim: There were like high level and it was, uh, assisting them with software program and so on. And at that time I thought maybe I should have done a few more years of network engineering before taking the step to automation. Maybe I could have been better skilled. I just had mystification. Maybe the, if I pushed a little bit more.

[00:16:59] Slim: And then move to automation. Maybe it would have been better. There were always that thought that I had behind. And right now when I'm focusing way more on automation, when sometimes clients are asking about really robust application, you know, something that should have like really good software, really good, Something really robust and you spend so much time on the software side and then we come back on to explain that to networking team.

[00:17:29] Slim: It doesn't match and okay, let's go back to the drawing board. And, um, yeah, I've, I feel neither that's, uh, that's why, uh, happily there is the term network automation, because I feel neither right now. I really like networking. I really love it a lot, but if you don't practice it, you, you lose some of the skills that you gained along the way that enforces the, the, the imposter, uh, feeling.

[00:17:56] Slim: Absolutely. 

[00:17:57] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I can see that for sure. And you're right. Right. I, like, I, that really resonates that idea that, you know, all these things are kind of like muscles. Right. And so like, if you, if you, if you exercise them regularly, they get stronger and you're more confident in what you can do with them and having to go back and forth between the two can definitely kind of almost neglect one while you're working on the other one, that's an interesting view.

[00:18:15] Slim: Yeah. And also automation is like progressing so much right now. And there is so much people are waiting to have way better solution faster. And, uh, we are not software engineers. We started from networking, so we are doing our best and it's like running against this, this current. And, uh, There's so much to know in so little time, I always like to say that it's like drinking from a fire hose.

[00:18:44] Slim: There's so much, so much to know, and you're doing your best to grab like the 2080 from each side. 2080 networking, 2080 software, and let's do the best that we can with both. 

[00:18:56] Chris: Yeah, and you're right. I mean, it's a very dynamic time right now in network automation. So things, you know, I guess, you know, we always talk about technology changing quickly and that being part of the job of being in like digital infrastructure or I.

[00:19:07] Chris: T. Or technology in general is having to deal with that change. But I think I agree with you there that, you know, automation right now is definitely the key. Really evolving pretty quickly. I'm not the other spaces aren't, but you know, the, the tools we use, the frameworks, it's all kind of still being sorted out.

[00:19:23] Chris: It's definitely doesn't seem stable where you can just go say, Oh, well, this is how you do network automation. And then you can just kind of learn, get really good at that. It's actually, it's really a continuous process of learning right now and adapting as other people's figure things out and share them, which can be really fun, but also pretty intimidating because you, you almost know that you're never doing.

[00:19:41] Chris: The best thing, because it probably hasn't been figured out yet, even. 

[00:19:44] Slim: Yeah, there's no blueprint for this, even like networking. I don't want to talk again about certification, but it's like you have the blueprint. You need to know this for OSPF. You need to know BGP. You need to know this. And. You know, if we, if you study and get those information, you can be good at the job, how you can advise any new, uh, automation guy today, what, what should you learn first?

[00:20:09] Slim: What should he is, it will depend absolutely on, uh, on what he has to do and how he can help on day one. And then build from there. And there's so much stuff that I didn't have the chance to, to, to use today because I didn't have the opportunity yet. 

[00:20:26] Chris: And it seems like some of these things kind of come in and out of, of fashion pretty quickly too.

[00:20:30] Chris: Right. I mean, there's definitely, you know, and not to date this podcast too much, but I think, you know, things like, like YAML or Yang versus Jason or XML and like which data structure you're using and which interface you're using, whether it's like Netconf or RESTconf or, or now like gRPC, these things kind of are changing in real time.

[00:20:48] Chris: And so like, depending on where you're working and who you're working with, somebody might choose one thing over another. Somebody is using Python. Somebody's using go. It's very interesting. Yeah. 

[00:20:55] Slim: Yeah. So as, uh, but yeah, how to use technology. I, I worked with, uh, clients, like they really liked Ansible and, uh, even though they were on the team, they were really good Python developer.

[00:21:07] Slim: He said, no, we have to use Ansible because that would be easier for future network engineers that come on the job. Yeah, let's give him that and I don't work with other clients, but no, we don't like Ansible. We know how to do Python. Let's do our best to do robust application in Python. And for the next one, the people are that are using it, we will make a web application and we will use our scripts for our web application.

[00:21:33] Slim: We don't care. We want robustness. So there is no right answer on the team, on the philosophy. And so not to scare off anyone who wants to get into, into, into this, but you just need to start with wherever you can, where you are right now. 

[00:21:50] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I like that a lot. And I think, you know, well, well, I mean, maybe just talking about getting into this, I think one of the reasons I wanted to speak with you is that you've kind of built this, you know, network automation career fairly recently, right?

[00:22:03] Chris: It's in the last decade, which is awesome. And so, you know, in talking about that, right, you kind of talked about, you know, new people starting and not to be scared. I guess maybe my question is around, would you recommend others to pursue network automation as, as kind of a good career path? Is there, are you seeing this as, as a place where there's growth, there's more and more jobs, more and more companies that are interested in it?

[00:22:25] Chris: Or are there still a lot of companies that don't quite get it? And is it, is it hard to push forward? Um, I don't know if that's a clear question or not, but maybe we can talk a little bit about what you see as the opportunities in network automation. 

[00:22:35] Slim: So I got into, into this job, first of all, because an employer trusted me.

[00:22:40] Slim: He trusts that, uh, okay, uh, let's try this. Maybe you can do this. And, uh, I'm so happy that they trusted me because I ended up liking this career. But I saw that people came in and come out, uh, started automation. Oh, no, I don't, I don't want to do this. I like networking. Let's put it, let's put this aside. So advice, at least, I think you need to start with networking.

[00:23:04] Slim: It would be hard to, to jump right through, through automation. And start through networking, see what you like, what you don't like. And if you like to solve problems, You will see that automation is a way to solve problems. If you like to solve them through the infrastructure side, do it. Don't force yourself into software or what else.

[00:23:24] Slim: But be a user of automation. At least not, uh, don't close off. And about the companies that are, at least what I'm seeing around me. So I'm still young. I just got into this industry. I didn't see that much of the companies. But most of them are not yet sold on automation. Still, there is still some, uh, you still have to push a little.

[00:23:49] Slim: You still have to find the right arguments. Uh, and I'm sure with the right words, everyone will, uh, will, will follow you. But there is, you need to find the, the right words. You need to find how they will be sold on automation. Yeah, everyone's different and, uh, everyone would invest in it differently, but I'm confident that it is the way forward, uh, at least some automation and some use of it in, in a way or not, either it be, it'd be custom, uh, In house or you you buy the product or or or what else but some of it it helps we can't deny that it helps how and uh With which story it will depend on you.

[00:24:37] Slim: Uh, it helps and it's harder to find companies that are Sold directly without that. You have to start a conversation and listen to them and so on. In the great scheme of things, I think there are way more that are still not a hundred percent sold on it right now. 

[00:24:58] Chris: Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you have any ideas or opinions based on your experience so far as to what might be holding organizations or, you know, leadership at organizations or even other network engineers back from, from fully adopting automation?

[00:25:13] Chris: Cause. I tend to agree with you. I have the same belief that that automation is one super, super helpful and two because of how helpful it is inevitable. But I also see that resistance. So I'm wondering if you've seen kind of or have opinions about why there is that resistance there. 

[00:25:29] Slim: Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot, like trying to find the right words to convince people.

[00:25:36] Slim: And I think it comes down to trust, trust in the technology, trust in the people that are going to implement the solution, trust that even if that solution is going to be done, that it will really improve the day to day, and you need to gain that trust, and like anywhere else in life, trust is hard to acquire.

[00:26:05] Slim: So it takes time, but it's just this, the initial step that's important. Once you have a step, you can advance forward, but you need to gain that trust, uh, any way you can. But I think that's the way of the industry right now. At least in the green scheme of things for most of the companies, but, uh, there's still exception and, uh, that's, uh, that's where we get our work.

[00:26:30] Chris: Well, this has been awesome conversation, but we are just about out of time. Slim, is there any, are there any like projects or causes or resources or anything you'd want to point the imposter syndrome network folks to? We'll have your LinkedIn profile linked in the show notes. So folks want to reach out and get in touch with you that way they can.

[00:26:46] Chris: But is there any other. Things you'd like to highlight for the folks listening. 

[00:26:50] Slim: So I'm still fairly young in my career. I was just, let's just start out and I, and I just started out being visible on the internet, so I'm only present on LinkedIn right now. And, uh, we'll, I'm just sending it out and see where it takes me.

[00:27:07] Slim: But yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. 

[00:27:10] Chris: I will say you've been putting out some great content on LinkedIn. So I think if, if folks want to follow somebody who's talking about network automation, slim is a great person to do that. And, and some, thank you for coming on and sharing your story with the imposter syndrome network.

[00:27:22] Chris: I really appreciate this. I think the listeners will as well. And so thank you to all of you who are out there listening for your time and your attention. Uh, those are your most valuable assets and we really appreciate you spending them with us. If you did find this episode insightful or interesting, please consider paying it forward by letting others know about this show and the great guests we have on before we totally close out slim, I am curious.

[00:27:46] Chris: You know, In your time so far, you know, looking back now at the beginning of your career, is there anything you would have done differently? 

[00:27:54] Slim: I'm not sure because even the steps that were thought I was disappointed, uh, it gave back, uh, in, uh, years later. My beginning of the career in software, I thought, yeah, what I'm doing, I shouldn't have done that.

[00:28:09] Slim: But no, a few years later and the skills that I learned that they, they came back. So I think you should, I'm, I'm not a person that thinks about that. I think every little step we made has its purpose, even maybe not now, maybe later. But, uh, if not, uh, for the West, always for the better. 

[00:28:33] Chris: Awesome. Uh, I tend to agree with you on that.

[00:28:35] Chris: So that's a great place to leave it. Thanks again. And we will be back next week.