Machines made this, mistakes and all:

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the imposter syndrome network podcast where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't, my name is Chris Grundemann. And a quick note, our beloved Zoe Rose has decided that quality time with her two children, one of them, a newborn needs to take priority for a while while I know we'll all miss her on the podcast.

[00:00:28] Chris: I'm also sure that all of you will join me in wishing her well. She'll be back, but it will be a couple of months. So I'll stop mentioning her absence after this episode and what an episode this will be. It's the Doug K episode. Doug is a self branded security minded network engineer with past roles at Juniper, Cisco, Gigamon, Nokia.

[00:00:50] Chris: And now at Arista, he's witnessed the vendor community continue to develop remarkable products during his 30 year career. The recent shift from pre sales back to post sales has made his job fun again, permitting him to focus on implementing reliable, secure solutions for customers.

[00:01:10] Chris: Hey Doug, would you like to introduce yourself any further to the Impostor Syndrome Network? 

[00:01:14] Doug: Yeah, no, thanks Chris, uh, appreciate it. Yep. I just said Doug K., like, Very short last name that nobody can spell. So it's always K A Y and my kids have to go through that same thing. It's whatever their name is, K, right?

[00:01:28] Doug: Morgan Ryland, right? So yeah, no, I appreciate the opportunity to be on your show. 

[00:01:33] Chris: Awesome. Cool. Let's dive right in here. We connected through a mutual friend, Scott Robohn. How do you know Scott? 

[00:01:40] Doug: Yeah. So, uh, let's say I met Scott in 2004 when I was started at Juniper and Juniper federal. And Scott was, if I recall, he was running the.

[00:01:53] Doug: Federal TAC at that point with another colleague who was a close friend. And, uh, we just, uh, stayed in touch over the years through multiple people and really great connecting with him. Uh, actually ended up working with him at Nokia where he was my boss for a little bit. We stayed in touch and, uh, yeah, it was fortunate enough to, uh, go to NAF, um, which, uh, you and, you and Scott started maybe along with some others and what a great, great experience it was.

[00:02:21] Doug: So yeah, huge, uh, Huge fan of Scott and, you know, in the super small world, I live in Annapolis and right down the street was a company that Scott taught at prior to Juniper called the Chesapeake Computer Consulting, and it's literally down the street from my house, and I used to go, I used to go there all the time and People you've had on your show, Terry Slattery and others, they're all founders of that.

[00:02:44] Doug: So I am pretty sure though, I don't remember that Scott and I, Scott probably taught a intro to Cisco something way back in the day. 

[00:02:53] Chris: Very cool. Yeah. It's wild how we kind of continue to bump into each other over these, uh, decades long careers and in different places and with different hats on and things for sure.

[00:03:02] Chris: And speaking of that, I think, you know, I, as I mentioned in the intro there, You've worked at kind of, yeah, maybe not quite all the greats, but a lot of the great kind of networking companies. Why don't you run us through kind of your career? Obviously it, you know, that could be a very long story, 30 years across a lot of companies, but maybe, you know, the 62nd version of, you know, Doug Kay's journey through technology so far.

[00:03:22] Chris: Sure, sure. Yeah. And I won't time you. So don't, don't worry about that. 

[00:03:26] Doug: So, you know, maybe even going farther back, I started out doing computers way back when, for what it's worth for my 13th birthday, I got a 386 computer. I did have the, the, uh, Fortunate luck that my dad worked for Intel starting in 1977, 1978.

[00:03:44] Doug: We had a computer at home when probably very few people had computers at home. So I grew up in the, uh, as my dad would say, golden age of PCs, but. Started doing Windows and then Novell in the early 90s, pardon me, almost said 80s, and then got into Microsoft and then ultimately took a job in New Jersey at a company called Allied Signal, which is now part of Honeywell and really, really exciting.

[00:04:15] Doug: I'll get to the vendor stuff too. Really exciting on my first week there. And I was a Novell guy. They said, Hey, this is the network guy. This is his last week. Learn everything you can from him. So that was kind of my get thrown in. So I knew about IPX routing a little bit, right? From you have a server with two NICs, right?

[00:04:35] Doug: And you do routing or maybe you turn it off. It's. Being the better approach don't do routing on a server back then, but it moved on to, um, came back to Maryland after about two years, ended up at a. com fortunately in Annapolis close to home. And the big lure there was, uh. Sail at work, right? And so they were luring people.

[00:04:57] Doug: This was 1998. They were luring people with the, uh, hey, live the Annapolis lifestyle. It's fun. We have sailboats. The company bought sailboats. It was throwing money everywhere and they had already started it, but built up this, uh, large Cisco network to do what some people would say was the forefront of, uh, cloud, which was application hosting.

[00:05:18] Doug: And, uh, really great experience, moved on, had some good mentors there, including one that ended up at Juniper, Andrew Liu, and Andrew helped me, uh, helped me find many jobs, but he also helped me get a job at Juniper along the way and, uh, ended up in federal and, uh, helping out with DoD. And a great, great company wanted to be a bit more hands on.

[00:05:42] Doug: It was kind of interesting. I got hired the week that Juniper and I'm sorry, this is going way over 60 seconds. I got, I got hired the, uh, the week that Juniper bought NetScreen. And that was my first experience going someplace where there was an acquisition. They said, Hey, everybody's got an offer. You're going to get it.

[00:06:01] Doug: You're you'll start, but you just made it. Oh, wow. And so I wanted to do pure routing as all the people at Juniper did. And then I ended up getting stuck, if you will, doing stuck for what it's worth doing firewalls and whatnot and routing. And that stream was really ahead of its time. In that way, but I brought that routing and firewall experience with me from my dot com job and ultimately ended up moving on to Cisco going to what Cisco called the, uh, web, uh, wireline emerging provider and, uh, supported, uh, XO communications for three ish years, really great job, good people got to, uh, got to help compete against my former employer, Juniper and, uh, Got some Cisco CRS ones in there and made some great relationships, including some of the people you've had on your, so, uh, that was good.

[00:06:53] Doug: Then I decided to go off on my own and become a government contractor. Cause I was tired of working 60 hours a week at Cisco and just wanting to try something new. And I think, 

[00:07:03] Chris: did that work? Did you actually work less hours as a, as a contractor than you had as a, an employee? 

[00:07:08] Doug: Yeah. So great, great point. I did, but I didn't enjoy it.

[00:07:12] Doug: And so I wanted to be busy, oddly, that was one of my longest jobs. Just one of those things where I just, I didn't want to give up on it. But it just, it just wasn't a good fit from the beginning. And there were, speaking of imposter syndrome, I had a lot of doubts once I got there. Really from day one, but I just kept plugging away, even knowing it wasn't a great fit.

[00:07:34] Doug: But then, went back to Cisco, was there covering a DoD customer. For a few years, then, uh, moved on, had a couple little stints after Cisco ended up, uh, ended up at, uh, Gigamon, which was, uh, I didn't know what a network packet broker was at the time I dealt with security. I've dealt with span ports and those type of things.

[00:07:56] Doug: And man, what a, uh, really interesting product. And, uh, it's just amazing how they grew that. They really created that market in my opinion, from what I could tell. And it came out of doing taps and building taps, then it was just the next thing. And. You know, really good marketing, you know, the orange boxes, what a great idea.

[00:08:18] Doug: And the story was that I think it was AOL said, we can't find your boxes in our data set and some color and they painted them orange. And like the first ones were spray painted orange. That's awesome. Yeah. Then from there moved back to routing, if you will, uh, Nokia and Nokia federal. And, uh, had a great opportunity to, uh, help with, uh, 5g and actually helped do a, uh, small private 5g cell install at a department of energy out west, and that was really an eye opener.

[00:08:47] Doug: I was, didn't know what I was doing, but they needed somebody out there to help install. And, you know, it started all making sense, right. And understanding, Hey, this phone in my home. The stone in my hand, if you will, how we're going to make things work. And then, um, ultimately, uh, ended up, um, had some life changes and pre sales was just not working out for me.

[00:09:10] Doug: And every time, you know, and I give Nokia lots of props for this. Ultimately I was on a project that was a pilot of sorts or a park. And when we were talking about. OSPF and BGP and all these things. I'm like, Oh man, it's taking me back. And I considered trying to shift to a professional services job at Nokia, but just wasn't the right move.

[00:09:35] Doug: And at the time this opportunity came to, uh, go to Arista and do post sales. And it's, it's been great. It's like going back 20 plus years and being hands on a router jockey, if you will. They treat us super well and the products are solid and the customers like it and you know, it's not a huge stretch after working at these different vendors and from a configuration standpoint.

[00:10:00] Doug: It looks like iOS for the most part, so not too hard to adopt and working closely with customers. It's great, and I get to be a little bit of a link to the account team as well, which so I keep my hand in pre sales just a little bit, even though the post sales has happened, and hopefully I can pass along some information about, you know, whether it's a certain type of optic the customer needs or a need for network observability when they were upgrading to from 10 to 100 gig or 400 gig, and they don't have the, uh, taps in place, or if you will, the, the Packet Broker infrastructure.

[00:10:35] Doug: To do those upgrades. So security kind of catching up around the network. 

[00:10:41] Chris: Awesome. That's cool. So it sounds like you started hands on, which I think a lot of people do obviously, and then moved into the more pre sales type roles, more kind of consultative, I guess, maybe talking about technology more than, than doing it.

[00:10:53] Chris: And, and that hunger to kind of get back into the nuts and bolts and do it hands on is what led you to Arista. Can you tell me more about kind of that desire to, to move from, from pre sales back to post sales and be more hands on? 

[00:11:04] Doug: Yeah, well, I think, you know, one thing somebody could say is, uh, when you're in sales, your account manager can be your best friend or your worst enemy.

[00:11:12] Doug: Or somewhere in between right and pressure flows and quotas and whatnot And I just I always found myself more interested in the solution And having been that customer if you will in the past, you know Maybe going back to my dot com days at usi in annapolis and somewhere in between in the as a contractor I really was trying to come up with creative ideas.

[00:11:39] Doug: One of the things on my LinkedIn page says I try and do more with less. So if there was a creative thing I could do with a router to avoid. Buying two more routers, right? Whether the, you know, hate to use the term policy based routing, or if you will, some QS function, whatnot. I was just always focused on that and very customer focused almost, uh, almost to the point where it could be, uh, I don't want to say it was detrimental, but it could have been.

[00:12:09] Doug: Right where I was just taking on that. I am the customer thing even though I wasn't and so that really kind of I was thinking to myself. How do I? make this all work and It just between that last pock if you will at nokia and spending a lot of time thinking and then looking for jobs out there This one popped up and i'm and just yeah post sales.

[00:12:34] Doug: Why not? Awesome. And uh, yeah That's been a return to my roots if you will and You know, for somebody who got into being a sales engineer, it was like the, if you will, sexy thing in town, right? It had the commission, it was exciting, and I had a lot of excitement in my career doing that, but just over the last, I'd say, five to ten years, it just wasn't as exciting as it used to be.

[00:12:59] Chris: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can see, I mean, the shine does wear off of things, even really, really great things. I think as I get older, I start to see more and more these things when I was young that I thought would be like the thing forever, or, you know, the pinnacle or the ultimate turnout to be, you know, potentially interesting, but, but maybe not the forever thing for sure.

[00:13:16] Chris: And then, and kind of thinking in those terms, listening to your story, I was struck by. You know, it sounds like repeatedly you kind of got thrown into the fire, whether that was intentional or not. Right. So even if that first job at allied signal, you show up and the guy's leaving and they're like, all right, you're a network engineer.

[00:13:29] Chris: Now, figure it out, going to Juniper. They're like, Oh, we're buying net screen. You're, you know, you're a firewall engineer. Now figure it out. I think there was even one or two more examples in there of the Nokia with the mobile networks and kind of figuring that out right, right away, you know, which maybe is not completely atypical of, of a career in digital infrastructure and kind of it type things.

[00:13:47] Chris: I mean, things change and you have to grow and learn. But not everyone does that. I think some people kind of stick to one path has that kind of, at least from my perspective, like being forced to learn on the fly. Has that ever caused you problems? Or do you really love that? Or does that come with some maybe imposter syndrome, as you mentioned, right?

[00:14:04] Chris: Feelings of not quite getting it right away. Or or maybe we talked through that process of. Of that, you know, being torn into the fire like that, or maybe you don't see it that way. 

[00:14:12] Doug: So I would say I'd never been risk averse, sometimes to my own detriment. Um, certainly getting thrown into the fire caused me to lose a lot of sleep.

[00:14:23] Doug: You know, I, I re I remember another story. I, uh, was at Jennifer and one Friday, I think they told me, Hey, you're gonna, we need you to go to the moon IPV6 testing. And maybe it was Denver. I think it was out West. I'm like, Oh God. I don't know anything about IPv6. So I spent the whole weekend without all it's box and a bunch of logical routers, then called logical routers, I think, and, uh, set up IPv6 and I was asking a Jeff Doyle questions, probably dumb questions at the time, uh, working at Juniper then, and, uh, then I didn't have to go and it was, man, what a relief, but, uh, I also was fortunate to end up, um, there was a U S government IPv6 conference in DC and, uh, My boss let me set up the IPv6 connectivity.

[00:15:14] Doug: It was working with Sprint, bringing in a Juniper router, dealing with DHCP or lack of DHCP v6 at the time. And, uh, it was really. Really, really fun. But, you know, at the same time, yeah, it was scary. It kind of messed with my sleep, but you know, no pain, no gain. And that's, uh, what I, what I try and teach my kids.

[00:15:36] Doug: It's, it's tough because things come so easy these days, right? The, the thousand dollar phone, right? 2, 000 computer. 

[00:15:45] Chris: Yeah. As you said, right, you were lucky, you know, I mean, yeah, there was definitely, uh, an uneven dispersion of technology. Yeah. I think there still is, but it's much more, you know, ubiquitously available for sure.

[00:15:55] Chris: And, and then that technology taps into all these things we've, we've talked about on the show several times in the past, just the fact that when folks of our age got into technology, there was no YouTube, there wasn't even like a Google, a search engine that definitely wasn't Tik Tok or, or LinkedIn or any of these places where you can kind of, or Twitter or whatever, or what, you know, wherever you go, get your information and meet other people and learn.

[00:16:16] Chris: How to do these things. None of that was available, right? It was just straight up, you know, hopefully read a Cisco press book and, you know, uh, maybe find some RFCs and, and if you're lucky, somebody on the team knows some stuff that can, they can kind of teach and mentor you. And they're willing to, without just being gruff and telling you to figure it out on your own, because I got a lot of that when I was younger, uh, for sure.

[00:16:34] Chris: Uh, but yeah, it is a lot easier now. And on that point, I mean, you know, you've mentioned your kids a couple of times, obviously being a father is important to you. Yeah. Has fatherhood influenced your career at all? I mean, are there things you've taken from your career that have made you a better parent or, or things that being a parent have made you better in your career?

[00:16:52] Chris: Does that interaction happen? 

[00:16:54] Doug: Uh, yeah, I, I would say yes. Um, so I, I probably started off emulating my parents and, uh, so my dad worked for Intel for 20 years and he was a workaholic. He came from a long line of workaholics, travel once a month. My mom was, uh, stuck dealing with three kids most of the time.

[00:17:12] Doug: Fortunately, my dad worked from home. So he, he had that, that privilege in the eighties and the nineties. That's what I was used to. So my wife at the time took care of the kids and I went off to work and that's what it was and you know, I, I used to think about my time at Cisco and I, I would say it jokingly at the time.

[00:17:31] Doug: Now it's kind of. It's not a joke. I'm like, what was I thinking? But I would say I would take time off. This is my first in at Cisco. I would take my take time off from work to spend time with my family, really pretty backwards, right? Thinking. But at the time that was what I thought I was supposed to do.

[00:17:50] Doug: And I remember this great quote from somebody at Juniper and it was before I was married, I was engaged at the time. This is going back before Cisco. It took me a long time to really get it. He's like, everybody has something that they really care about in this world that's important. And I'm like, he's going to say work or money.

[00:18:09] Doug: He said, family is a few years older than me, had some older kids. And I had no kids at the time. And I'm like, Whoa. I wasn't expecting that. So it, it took me a long time to really deal with that. And in many ways I leveraged work as kind of my satisfaction or source of validation, if you will. And, you know, I think people in the tech industry.

[00:18:34] Doug: or validation seekers. Seeking validation and then not getting it, I think, you know, speaking of the podcast, really leads into imposter syndrome. And so I, I went through some tough times just moving on thinking, you know, things will be better. I'm going to get What I want here. I want to become a government contractor thinking I could really offer a lot of change and boy, I had a surprise in for me.

[00:19:02] Doug: And it was, I was hoping I could bring like service provider, if you will, best practices to government. And that was an uphill battle for sure. Including. An interesting project that I thought was interesting that would really help a lot that ultimately nobody wanted to succeed. And there were a few of those in the government, including the, the seniors, if you will, the SESs that were in charge of them.

[00:19:28] Doug: Some of them, they didn't want it to succeed or they were pushing, but there were the contractors or other government people that didn't want it to succeed. And I had never worked in an environment quite like that. very much. In the dot com, you were, you know, we were going to succeed at Cisco. John Chambers had a great saying, never, never lose a loan and a big believer.

[00:19:53] Doug: But in the government, it was just very different. And, uh, you know, definitely led to some imposter syndrome, but getting back to then I, I'm, you know, if you will, I stuck myself in this job. It paid well. But I didn't enjoy going to work for those 40 hours a week and it was tough to bill for 40 hours a week.

[00:20:12] Doug: And then I didn't have the relationship with my kids that I wanted at the time. And I didn't, it took me a lot of tough times, if you will, that some families go through to figure out how to, how to build that relationship. Not make work secondary, um, though to some degree it has been in my, in my, but make, make the kids first, for sure.

[00:20:39] Doug: And take that on that attitude that my, uh, old boss had said about the indie, about making, you know, what's the most important thing, what's the thing that everybody cares about. 

[00:20:50] Chris: Yeah, I like that a lot. It reminds me, I may have told this story on the podcast before, but one of the guys I worked with early on, one of the, the first ISP I was building, it was actually a retired emergency room doctor that was a, an investor in the company.

[00:21:03] Chris: And we worked together, um, building this ISP anyway, you know, I've always been a very intense person. I think it sounds similar, right? I think, I think my dad was also a workaholic and I kind of stepped into that and kind of followed the same way. And I've always taken. I work very seriously, I think less, less, maybe less so now in, in some, in some good ways.

[00:21:20] Chris: But that intensity and, and kind of drive and, and maybe the same thing, right? Seeking that validation from the job I was doing led to, you know, stress and anxiety and just kind of, you know, not quite totally freaking out, but definitely being on edge, maybe being frustrated, maybe being openly angry sometimes when it didn't really need to be or I didn't really need to be.

[00:21:38] Chris: And, uh, anyway, this gentleman. Told me once that, uh, he said, you know, just remember, you know, what are they going to put on your tombstone? Right. He said, hopefully if you're lucky, they're going to say, you know, loving father, caring husband, great friend. Right. What they're definitely not going to say is, you know, expert, no CLI troubleshooter, that's probably not going to go on your tombstone, right?

[00:21:59] Chris: It's not, it's not the big important thing. Um, and that really helped me kind of refocus, um, at that time, it was more just kind of letting some of that stress go and not taking it so seriously. Later on, I realized maybe putting family first was also more important and friends first and, and not putting work above everything else that took me a long time as well to, to kind of get around to that.

[00:22:19] Doug: No, it's a growth thing. I'm happy to, happy to have it. And, you know, I think my life is more balanced and I've been able to get into kind of different hobbies that always. Either I didn't have the time or the time, patience or faith in myself to try and execute. So it was always about work or what can I earn, you know, if I get this job and I make this much, I can buy the next car that I want.

[00:22:46] Chris: Yeah, right. I know that, uh, that, that hamster wheel very well, I think. 

[00:22:50] Doug: Yeah, yeah, it's tough. It's tough chasing the dimes, so to speak. 

[00:22:55] Chris: So, you know, without kind of going back against that, I think, you know, looking at your career so far, what would you say is the greatest achievement you've had kind of within that bounds of, of work and career?

[00:23:06] Doug: It's a tough one. Cause it was so far back. I like to hope that I have done more since then, but, uh, I would say at the time getting my CCIE in 2001, it was during the. com. And, uh, into the dot bomb, if you will, working with two or three guys on my team at the, at the. com USI, and we were all going for it and I passed on the third time and it was just one, yeah, yeah.

[00:23:36] Doug: That's average. I'll take it. It first time I wasn't prepared. Second time I just did something really dumb and a third, third time I made it. Probably by the skin of my teeth, but, um, during that time, and it was really, I learned some good lessons about time management. So during the last time, I think it was May, I got 2001, I got laid off from USI and I had my CCIE scheduled.

[00:24:04] Doug: I'm like, what am I going to do? Yeah. How am I going to look for a job? And pass this test. I can't do it. And so I just set out a schedule during the day. I would look for a job on the, God, I think I was, might've still been using a fax modem at that point to send out resumes. During that time, I would look for a job.

[00:24:28] Doug: During the day, certain hours, and then at night I would study and, and on the weekends and I passed, but I developed some good, some good habits and things I want to impart on my kids of separating things, how you can get more things done. 1 of the things I always say is what I learned from that experience was don't send emails on Monday morning.

[00:24:51] Doug: Don't send them Friday. Try not to send them Friday. Don't ask, don't put send your resume in. Don't ask for anything on the, at those times because people aren't going to process. And I, I saw it through looking for a job and so it was perfect. And, uh, passed the test, felt like a hero, came back. Uh, USI gave me a job in the knock as a contractor for.

[00:25:16] Doug: X number of months and uh, I had like just the most fun that summer possible So I went from being one of the three network guys to awesome to being in the NOC Hmm, and it was tough as well So I had I had fun But I really wanted my old job back and I just wasn't mature enough to accept that that time it passed Yeah, it took me a little bit To, uh, kind of find my way.

[00:25:42] Doug: And I went to a post. com, which was the hope of where God, if I didn't work 60 hours a week, I'd probably work 70 or 80. And, uh, that was just something I didn't want to fail. I didn't want to put in those two years and it just didn't work out. And, uh, I was able to build a network from scratch. That was actually the first time I did it.

[00:26:08] Doug: I had a team of people. I learned I was a bad manager at the time and haven't pursued management since then. Though, though, um, mentoring I'm open to. And, uh, got to build the network. I got to use Juniper and help me get my job at Juniper, I hope. Well, that's cool. And, uh, that was a good launch into the vendor community.

[00:26:28] Chris: Well, speaking of not wanting to let things go, but having to, uh, we'll have to leave it there today. Doug, do you have any projects or causes you'd like to let us know about? I think you're starting a podcast. So maybe sometime soon. 

[00:26:41] Doug: Yeah. Uh, my best friend and I are, uh, Starting a podcast. Um, you know, there's some inspiration from you, of course, and others.

[00:26:50] Doug: And I'm big in the podcast, uh, where we're going to talk to people about cars. I'm a big car fan. I have a kind of two of my dream cars for what it's worth. A 1990 Nissan 300 ZX, which was the car I wanted in high school, which for another time got me into my kind of indirectly got me into Novell and then where I am today.

[00:27:12] Doug: And so I ended up buying that 30 years later. Nice. Yeah. And, uh, I have a DeLorean also. Oh, wow. So I. Not done a lot of mechanical work on it, but a lot of electrical. My dad was EE. So I learned a bit from him. You know, I've had the car break down multiple times. It's been at a friend's house for six months while he's doing suspension work.

[00:27:34] Doug: Cause I'm not comfortable doing that, but that car has been, and I, I'd like to write a memoir kind of about that, but that car has been, uh, If you will, that car has been the best therapy I think money could buy. And I could be in that working on that car and my, here, my late father, you know, in talking and I'm working on doing some electrical work and using a soldering iron that he got me my first one when I was seven years old because he couldn't get me to put his down and I kept burning my hand.

[00:28:08] Doug: So, uh, so the, the podcast and, uh, really. Just wanted to mentoring, you know, I'll, I'll finish up with a quick story. I had somebody, uh, you Uber driver, give me a ride one time and nice kid, like this twenties and he's telling me about all the time he spends playing games and being a gamer and, and, but he wanted to be a dump truck driver and I'm like, dude, you live in Maryland, like NSA and all these other agencies are here.

[00:28:38] Doug: You have grown up with the internet and all these things that I didn't have. They need a next generation of people like you. I don't know if he did anything different, but that's what I really want to do. You know, and, uh, you know, the car thing is just fun. If I can, uh, interview people and talk to them about their cars and share my story, Hey, even better.

[00:29:01] Chris: Heck yeah, yeah, a lot of our lives are like, I'm a car guy as well. And I think a lot of, uh, a lot of my stories, at least, uh, especially early on my, my dad, where, you know, we're spent out in the garage handing him wrenches and stuff. So, uh, definitely interested to hear that when it comes out, Doug, thanks so much for sharing your story with the imposter syndrome network.

[00:29:21] Chris: Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you to all of our listeners for your time, your attention, and your support. If you found this episode insightful or interesting, uh, or even just entertaining, please consider paying it forward by letting others know about this show and the great guests we have on. Thanks again, Doug.

[00:29:37] Chris: I think we're going to leave it there today. This was really awesome. I appreciate you coming on and, uh, enjoy the conversation. 

[00:29:41] Doug: Yeah, thanks, Chris. Yeah, look forward to talking to you again, uh, offline. 

[00:29:45] Chris: Absolutely. And we will be back next week.