Machines made this, mistakes and all...

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the Impostor Syndrome Network Podcast, where everyone belongs, especially if you think you don't. My name is Chris Grundeman, and this is the Marisol Sepulveda episode. Fair warning, this episode is going to be a bit different. We've had tech adjacent folks on before, Like the sex therapist and the rocket scientist.

[00:00:29] Chris: And today we're going even further afield. Marisol is not only a dear friend of mine, but also a doctor who has done work with pediatrics, with IBM's Watson health and with organizational leadership. Not too long ago, Marisol and I were chatting on a beach down in Mexico, as one does, and she told me about some of the challenges she had faced.

[00:00:50] Chris: as a female doctor. They sounded very similar to stories I have heard from women who work in technology. So I invited her on the show. I hope that you find some interesting insights presented from a slightly different perspective than we normally take. Hey, Marisol, welcome. Uh, would you like to introduce yourself a bit further to the Impostor Syndrome Network?

[00:01:12] Marisol: Hey, sure. Thanks so much for having me, Chris. I'm super excited to be here. My name is Marisol E Sepulveda. I am a first generation Cuban and Puerto Rican American. I'm a physician. Um, that is what I do. I'm double board certified in occupational medicine and preventive medicine. I'm currently working as a medical director for Optum United Healthcare.

[00:01:32] Marisol: How I kind of got into this role was, um, you know, I've always been passionate about transforming the healthcare system to work better for everyone, to make healthy choices the easy choices, and to make good health accessible to everyone. Um, I kind of arrived at this position, um, through a long journey.

[00:01:49] Marisol: Um, my first job out of grad school, I worked for blue cross blue shield as a clinical integration consultant, which involves working, um, both internally with medical directors and other, uh, team members, project managers, and externally with our contracted primary care physicians. To help them transform their practices into what was called at the time patient centered medical home.

[00:02:10] Marisol: So essentially what this is is primary care at its core. It's care that's comprehensive, coordinated, and longitudinal through the lifetime that is focused on the patient. Unfortunately, the healthcare system is incredibly fragmented and does not support this. I had a great time working in this role. I found the work very rewarding and Um, the work that I was doing would be able to percolate out to, um, populations of people and not just focus on single patients and sort of went into medical school with this goal in mind.

[00:02:40] Marisol: And, and finally, um, where I wanted to be, which is super exciting. 

[00:02:43] Chris: Awesome. Awesome. So yeah, so take me back again a little bit. So you're a director at Optum. What does that actually look like? I mean, what is the day to day in your role? 

[00:02:52] Marisol: So, um, right now I'm a medical director for Optum United Healthcare in a faction that takes care of our sickest patients, our seniors.

[00:02:59] Marisol: So we work specifically to improve healthcare delivery for Medicare Advantage patients. Um, and to promote and help to implement with contracted providers was called a value based care model of care. This has been shown to work great for this as well as other vulnerable populations. And it's based on the concept that we're paying not for the service you're providing, but for the value of service you're providing.

[00:03:20] Marisol: Traditionally, medicine has been paid for in a fee for service environment. So, sort of, you're paid on volume and not necessarily the value of care that you're providing, um, within the context of each visit. Value based care instead pays on value or patient outcomes. So, it pays on, um, the basis of how many healthcare conditions did you cover?

[00:03:39] Marisol: Are you comprehensively managing the patient? Are you conducting the appropriate screening tests? Are you managing your chronic diseases? And are you basically keeping patients out of the hospital in the ER? 

[00:03:50] Chris: Awesome. That sounds like a much more sane approach. 

[00:03:53] Marisol: Yes. 

[00:03:53] Chris: I'm definitely not an expert, but it sounds great to me as a person who has to deal with the medical system as a patient, um, and has not had a lot of fun doing that so far.

[00:04:02] Marisol: Yeah. 

[00:04:02] Chris: Luckily, I've been pretty healthy in my life, so I haven't had to deal with it too much, but every time I do, I'm just like, Oh my God, what is going on here? So that's interesting. That's really, really cool. What is it? And I think we already got a little glimmer of this, right? But what is it that you love about your job?

[00:04:16] Marisol: I love painting broad brushstrokes that will impact populations, um, and changing systems because really it's the systems of care that drive behaviors. And I really feel like working for, um, a healthcare payer is an advantageous place to be if you want to change the systems, because if you change the way you pay people, you change what they do.

[00:04:39] Marisol: That's been proven time and time again. It's a powerful motivator. And, um, You know, I think also, um, when you're working within a business context, businesses make things happen because they have the capital to do so. I've seen that through a number of my experiences. So, um, you know, I think the healthcare moves more slowly relative to other areas.

[00:05:01] Marisol: But within healthcare, I think, um, payer initiated sort of changes move a lot faster than those that may be originating elsewhere. 

[00:05:09] Chris: That makes sense. I do want to kind of dive into a little bit of what we were talking about a few months ago when we saw each other and kind of decided to do this. Um, and you know, I'm struggling to think of where to start.

[00:05:20] Chris: And I guess maybe I'll ask you like, as a woman who has now become a physician, I mean, has there been specific challenges that you've faced along the way that And if so, maybe where did those start? Cause that maybe that'll help kind of guide the conversation. Is that something that like, does this start is as early as medical school?

[00:05:36] Chris: Or is it just once you get out there into internships and, um, or, you know, call them internships, you call them, uh, residencies and things like that. You know, I guess one, have there been challenges through your career? And then two, like, where did that start? 

[00:05:48] Marisol: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, I think I started, you know, I've, I've been working since I was 13.

[00:05:55] Marisol: I've worked in a number of jobs. You know, I, I started just experiencing some degree of sort of being treated, treated differently in the workplace from a very young age, but I think most profoundly felt that when I entered my residency training program, it was a little bit of that medical school, but not so much as when I started my residency.

[00:06:14] Marisol: Yeah. Yeah. And my first residency program was a particularly hostile work environment. So residency is set up such that you're training, you're a trainee. So, um, you're expected to essentially know nothing on your first day and know everything by the time you leave. Um, intrinsic to a lot of residency programs is the Socratic method of teaching.

[00:06:34] Marisol: I guess you could more simply state that as, um, So you're asking a direct question and expecting a direct answer. Often that's done in front of audiences of people and that can be incredibly nerve wracking. But everyone's training, everyone's learning. I was in a situation where I was experiencing disproportionate bullying and harassment in the workplace, including sexual harassment.

[00:06:56] Marisol: This occurred, um, with a number of the providers that I was working with and I reported this and was then retaliated against. I was in a situation where I, my, the mistakes that I was making, which were more or less on par with those that other residents were making were disproportionately magnified to sort of paint a picture that I was a bad resident.

[00:07:19] Marisol: I was placed on a performance improvement plan and ultimately my contract was not renewed. So that was it. I think the biggest setback I'd have to say definitely at that time, um, in my career. 

[00:07:28] Chris: And do you think that was, I mean, was that magnification from your perspective? Anyway, that was a result of you reporting this harassment and bullying.

[00:07:37] Marisol: Yes. Yeah. This happened. Um, it was sort of a zero to 100 situation. I came to find out that this situation is not unique to me. It's not unique to this residency program. That actually happens a lot in a lot of residency programs. And it's interesting. It's kind of counterintuitive, right? Because you're in a program that's supposed to be equipping you with skills to be successful and to cultivate resilience.

[00:07:56] Marisol: But, um, this situation, unfortunately, and in the case of others who've experienced similar situations. Kind of does the opposite. So it's something I've had to actively work to overcome and I think it's always there a little bit, but you just learn to manage it. 

[00:08:08] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Like so many things in life, I guess we just have to kind of figure out how to deal with it.

[00:08:13] Chris: You know, I've definitely had kind of my own journey of like understanding a little bit better, the plight of women, I guess, in this world, um, to some degree, there's a couple of things I think, and I forget who it was, there was some feminists who talked about the fact that. You know, a man's greatest fear is being laughed at by a woman and a woman's greatest fear is being murdered by a man, which, you know, is definitely meant to be a provocative statement.

[00:08:35] Chris: But when I thought about it, I really kind of felt the truth of it. And there was some things that I had been doing kind of, I guess, learned behaviors, right? For example, if I'm walking down a street late at night and it's dark and I usually walk really fast, so I have a tendency of passing anybody else's on the street.

[00:08:52] Chris: Yeah. And I found that like, I could startle a woman very, very easily doing that, right? Or just like, so I, I, I kind of learned these things of like, I, I like tend to try to make noise ahead of time, like let people know that I'm around and things like that. And just these little things. But like, you know, my adaptation isn't really the focus of what I'm talking about is the fact that like, there is this just different view of the world from the female perspective, I think, for a lot of reasons.

[00:09:16] Chris: Right. And one of the times that really, really came home to me, I was at actually at like a reception dinner after a wedding. And I was sitting next to one of my friend's daughters. I think she was like 13 at the time and we were talking and I don't know, remember exactly how it came up, but she made the comment.

[00:09:32] Chris: She's like, Oh, she's like, I can always tell when the adults are getting drunk because that's when my mom's friends start hitting on, um, which kind of also, you know, again, just kind of pulled all this together. And so I guess the reason I'm seeing all of this is just that I don't know that everyone has had those experiences or has kind of flicked through the way this works, especially from the side of a man.

[00:09:50] Chris: Right. I think women obviously, Know what it's like to be a woman. Um, but maybe not very many men do. And, you know, anyway, the reason I bring that up is I think that's reflected in your experience you had at this residency. Um, I don't know if there's a question there or not, but, you know, maybe you can talk to us a little bit more about that experience of being a woman.

[00:10:07] Chris: You know, being a woman in this kind of male dominated field or even male dominated world, I guess. 

[00:10:14] Marisol: Yeah. I think, um, you know, the higher I've gotten in my career, the less women have been around. Um, and you'd think that the more highly educated people are, the less you would encounter this type of misogynistic behavior, but it's present everywhere.

[00:10:28] Marisol: I mean, you know, there were attending physicians who would make comments to me like, Oh, you should dress up more often. Or just softly sort of like brush their hand across my back, whisper something in my ear, completely inappropriate behaviors, particularly considering we were taking care of children and sometimes in an emergency setting.

[00:10:46] Marisol: And, you know, you think, why, why would you not say something in the moment? Why would you not fight back? Well, I was in a situation where I was basically at the behest of these individuals to, um, move on to the next phase of my career. So, you know, I kind of sucked it up for a little while, but then it got to a point where I couldn't take it anymore.

[00:11:03] Marisol: And I had to say something was retaliated against. And that happens to so many women in so many different arenas. It's unfortunate and you know, this sort of retaliation response is institutionalized, um, in a lot of administrations as well. You know, it's sort of set up to make you feel. To feel gaslighted and that there is something wrong with you.

[00:11:24] Marisol: And in fact, there is not, if you're able to get through and overcome something like this, I think it imparts a resilience that you could not have acquired from any other type of situation. But it's just really unfortunate that this is the reality of our world. I think, you know, it sounds super pessimistic.

[00:11:41] Marisol: I'm actually a very optimistic person. And I do think that we've made major strides in improving the situation. You know, I think it's great that you have this podcast and you have people coming on to talk about it because it's really important. 

[00:11:53] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:11:53] Marisol: They can't, they can't be us if they can't see us. And I owe my success, um, you know, a lot of where I am today to a lot of the strong female mentors that I've had in my career.

[00:12:03] Marisol: So 

[00:12:04] Chris: awesome. That's great. And I, I do, that resonates with me, right. The kind of, you know, that which does not kill us makes us stronger. Uh, it is a good way to kind of see the glass half full or the silver lining. I do agree that it's unfortunate that you have to be tested in this Um, but it is good that it can lead to resilience if you approach it properly, I guess.

[00:12:21] Marisol: Yeah. I mean, we're dismantling centuries of, um, this structure. So it's gonna take a really long time. 

[00:12:28] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:12:28] Marisol: So we gotta celebrate our small successes. 

[00:12:30] Chris: That's very true. Um, one more question on kind of the dark side before we dive more into positivity. You know, I wonder if any of this has been internalized.

[00:12:39] Chris: Like, and, and I know you're a very self-aware person, and so, you know, I wonder if, you know, having gone through these experiences in your residency and, and elsewhere, maybe, you know, throughout your life, even since you were 13 mm-Hmm. , you know, do you ever feel like you are less than or feel like you're not smart enough to contribute or, you know, any of those kind of feelings of, of the imposter syndrome?

[00:12:55] Marisol: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel like I'm not smart enough, all the ti all the time. One of the good things about medical training is it teaches you. That you have to look things up. I'm always looking things up. I'm always, um, to seeking to learn about new things I put into place strategies and processes to do that.

[00:13:11] Marisol: I consider myself honestly a humble person in that regard. I feel like there's something to learn from everyone. There's something to learn from each experience. I think the failures are strongest teachers. It's not about how you fall, but how you get up and how you apply that to future situations. So, I mean, I, I experienced imposter syndrome.

[00:13:29] Marisol: Um, I feel less event in situations, but through my experiences, I figured out what it is I need to do to make myself feel better. More comfortable and intentionally put myself in situations where I'm uncomfortable because it helps me to grow. And with that, you get expansion and life becomes more full.

[00:13:45] Chris: Awesome. I want to talk a little bit about the mentors you mentioned just a moment ago. Maybe, I mean, I, I don't know, like, I think maybe the most useful thing would be to like, just talk about what made them good mentors, what you were actually able to take away from them or what, you know, what did they do to be good mentors?

[00:13:59] Chris: How did they help you? Um, cause I think then maybe other people can model that same behavior perhaps. 

[00:14:03] Marisol: That's a great question. It's something that I've thought a lot about. Um, and a common thread of these mentors is that they showed up as their authentic selves, um, in a place where they're expected to please everybody else.

[00:14:13] Marisol: I think all women feel that, that we need to be as America for us at and Barbie, we need to be perfect in every arena of our lives. And it's simply impossible. We have finite energy, finite resources, but these women consistently showed up as their authentic selves. And to me, that was amazing. It inspired me to do that as well in my work and in my life.

[00:14:36] Marisol: And I saw that they could be successful doing that. And, you know, gosh, if they could do it, I can too. And I've been in touch with them all along the way. 

[00:14:44] Chris: That's really, really good. What about just like general, like, so as you've, you've, you've had a couple of roles, right? I mean, so both, you know, through school and then through residency, but then also now even out kind of in, in the world, I guess, so to speak, you know, are there, I mean, I'm guessing that there's teams you've worked on that were better than others just in general, right?

[00:15:00] Chris: Just, you know, just as, as effectiveness, but also kind of team cohesity, that kind of thing. Could you talk a little bit about. In your experience, what makes a good team, or just describe, you know, the best team you've been on, maybe? 

[00:15:11] Marisol: Mm hmm. I have a great team right now where I'm working in northeast Florida.

[00:15:16] Marisol: Shout out to my team. You guys are the best. I also had a great team when I was working as a clinical consultant at IBM Watson Health, and I'll choose to focus on that one only because I felt like it was a really pivotal moment for me professionally. This was the role where I really felt that I was able to get over.

[00:15:30] Marisol: My imposter syndrome that had been sort of negatively reinforced by the residency position that I had for that. I was working as a clinical consultant, so I was brought on as someone who had something to offer and not something to earn or prove. You know, whereas age was a handicap and residency experience was a handicap, you know, you're younger, you have less experience or less credible.

[00:15:52] Marisol: At IBM Watson Health, my age and the related experiences there proved to be an asset. You know, compared to, um, some of my older peers, I was able to more adeptly navigate change, um, occurring within the organization. I had been exposed to technology at a very young age. And so, um, I worked on teams of very high level performers to create applications of the IBM Watson health technology and within various contexts.

[00:16:17] Marisol: Um, and these people were from all over the world. Um, they came from a number of disciplines. And we You know, there was a common thread of respect. I think that underlied all of our communications. Um, we each really appreciated the role that each person played, um, as critical to what we were trying to achieve together.

[00:16:36] Marisol: I think, um, everyone sort of respected the mission and vision as, you know, driving what we're trying to do. So, you know, I think a lot of it starts with hiring and, you know, just, I'd start being open to understanding people's personalities, And how they work best. 

[00:16:51] Chris: I like that. That definitely resonates with me.

[00:16:53] Chris: I think it's something that I am miles away from mastering, right? Is understanding the personalities of people enough to like really put together a good team, like intentionally. I've definitely both been a part of a team and also managed teams that were really great. I don't think I've ever intentionally created one of those teams, right?

[00:17:13] Chris: A lot of it was kind of happy accidents in a lot of cases. That's interesting, right? Is that something that as a leader, you know, are you really looking for kind of that kind of complimentary personality more than just technical skills? Or I mean, how do you look at that? 

[00:17:30] Marisol: I do. Um, I do think, you know, complimentary in the sense that I think there has to be a certain, um, I don't know how to explain it.

[00:17:39] Marisol: So everyone, I think, you know, has to be mission driven. You all have to be wanting to achieve sort of the same things and be driven by a unified higher purpose. But, you know, I think also it's important to bring people to the table who have different ways of approaching things because you're not going to create something new or innovate if everybody's thinking the same.

[00:17:59] Marisol: Yes. But have that sort of aspect of personality that you can't quite define that will determine sort of. Collaboration overall. 

[00:18:08] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of an openness, the collaborative spirit, I guess, in some degrees. Yes. I do like that. You know, I think that the, the mission driven piece goes a long way. I definitely, that's something that I have found in hiring.

[00:18:21] Chris: Uh, I talk about it as passion. Right. And, and just like, I maybe even dumb it down a little bit of like, does this person want to do this thing that needs to be done? And usually though, I think, you know, I think that does tie to the mission. Right. I mean, like, that's why people want to do things. Typically, right?

[00:18:35] Chris: Then whatever that mission is, sometimes it's just I want to learn cool stuff, but a lot of times it can be something bigger or more profound, but definitely having that kind of 

[00:18:43] Marisol: just as long as yeah, intrinsically motivated. 

[00:18:45] Chris: Yeah, yeah, the intrinsic motivation for sure. So speaking of the kind of this, you know, slightly differently, it seems that you really have gravitated towards those roles of leadership from a pretty early stage in your career.

[00:18:58] Chris: Why do you like being a manager more than like an individual contributor? Right. Cause there's a lot of, I think, I think anyway, there's, there's physicians who, you know, you can work just as a physician. You can just go like be an ER doc or something. I mean, that's a totally different path than what you're on, but, um, there are ways to work in medicine and just be kind of on your own a little bit versus having to put together a team and work with the team and be the boss.

[00:19:17] Chris: So to speak, why do you gravitate towards those leadership roles? 

[00:19:20] Marisol: I really love helping to develop individuals. And I love helping to generate consensus and collaboration towards a common goal. I feel that I can get along with many different types of personalities and that is helpful and being able to work together in large groups, people with differing viewpoints, occasionally competing priorities.

[00:19:40] Marisol: Um, it's just something that I really enjoy. 

[00:19:43] Chris: That makes total sense. I think that's, um, yeah, like just enjoying doing it is a big part of it. I do think you also called out some of like the key characteristics, at least from my perspective. Of a good manager, a good leader, right? Which is, um, fostering collaboration, helping people develop.

[00:19:59] Chris: I think, um, who was it? Uh, Leslie Carr, I think it was on one of the early episodes of the show talked about the fact that, you know, as a manager, like the best thing for her was When she could basically show someone that they could do something that they didn't think they could do, right? She would like encourage and like just putting them in that position where they had to do something that they didn't think they could do.

[00:20:20] Chris: And then we're able to do it and just kind of, you know, seeing that reaction on a person was kind of her, I think, um, gold star, so to speak of management, which I think kind of correlates what you're saying. 

[00:20:29] Marisol: That's a great point. That's a great point. I think about the times that I've experienced that personally, and those have been, you know, amazing experiences.

[00:20:37] Marisol: And I derive a lot of joy from helping people arrive at that as well. 

[00:20:41] Chris: Is there anything you wish you could change about your current role? 

[00:20:45] Marisol: So this is not necessarily about my current role. I think it's about the healthcare system in general, you know, healthcare moves. Very slowly. It's a behemoth. Um, you know, after having worked in tech, I really loved sort of the attitude that you need to fail.

[00:21:03] Marisol: Often you need to fail fast to move through multiple iteration of a product or technology to bring it to market. I feel like we trip over ourselves in healthcare, sometimes trying to make things perfect before launching. Um, when really sometimes it's the launching that allows you to scrutinize something from a perspective that you can understand what it is you need to change to make it better and move forward.

[00:21:25] Marisol: So, it's not necessarily my role. I think it's, uh, the healthcare system in general. Um, it's sort of an uphill battle, but definitely worth the climb. 

[00:21:33] Chris: Awesome. Yeah, that makes sense. And it definitely is a kind of a dichotomy to technology in a lot of ways where one of the biggest, maybe failings even, but definitely challenges of working in technology is that it does change so fast.

[00:21:44] Chris: I think it actually changes a little bit slower than we think it does, but it is still a much faster pace than, uh, it sounds like what, uh, you know, the medical industry goes through. 

[00:21:52] Marisol: And you know, and I mean, there's different situations, right? I mean, when patient care, the stakes are high, whereas in other situations, the stakes might be lower, um, and be more favorable towards moving things more quickly through things more quickly.

[00:22:03] Marisol: But I think it's really just more an overattitude than anything else. Um, 

[00:22:08] Chris: yeah, cause I mean, there, there is definitely a limit there where failing fast doesn't work when it's a, someone's life, 

[00:22:14] Marisol: exactly. 

[00:22:16] Chris: It is hard to just be like, Oh, it's okay. If we make mistakes, like we'll learn from them. You will, but the cost may be a little bit too high, so I can see why it runs a little slower.

[00:22:23] Chris: That being said, there's definitely, I think, room for improvement as well. It sounds like. 

[00:22:27] Marisol: Yeah, and I don't think things are ever going to be 100 percent perfect. I don't think people are ever 100 percent ready to step into something that they're uncomfortable with. But we keep trying. 

[00:22:37] Chris: Exactly. Yeah, you keep getting to the next peak, right?

[00:22:40] Chris: Because that's the thing. Once you get up there, you have a better view, and then you realize, oh, there's more peaks. There's something, there's something more to do, right? It looks like that was the pinnacle, and now there's more. 

[00:22:47] Marisol: Yeah, that's an amazing analogy. I love that. 

[00:22:50] Chris: Speaking of pinnacles, what would you say, at this point, I know you're still, you know, early days here.

[00:22:55] Chris: But what's the greatest achievement of your career so far? And that can be measured in any way you want to measure it. But what are you most proud of so far in your career? 

[00:23:03] Marisol: You know, I think my career has largely been, um, I have not been able to really be present in and celebrate the moment or the season that I'm in.

[00:23:14] Marisol: I've always kind of been striving to get to the next step. I feel like I'm at a place, personally and professionally, Where I am appreciating the season that I'm in and I'm really proud of where I've gotten and, you know, I think it's really, it's sort of been like a shift in my mindset. Um, maybe it's because the speed of sort of the urgency of advancing has, um, it's not as great as it was, for example, when you're in medical school, school trying to get into residency and then residency trying to get into your first job that I've had some time to sort of just sit back and enjoy the view.

[00:23:49] Marisol: A little bit. So really just my personal development until now has been my greatest achievement and I'm just looking forward to continuing to grow and expand. 

[00:23:59] Chris: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Uh, well, unfortunately, as we always do, we've run out of time for the day. Marisol, do you have any projects or causes or anything?

[00:24:09] Chris: Maybe something we have mentioned, maybe something we haven't, that you'd like to point out to the folks in the imposter syndrome network, something they should go look up or, or get involved in or anything, right? 

[00:24:17] Marisol: Wow. That's a great question. I guess I'd have to think about that and get back to you. I'm not really sure.

[00:24:22] Chris: Totally fair. 

[00:24:23] Marisol: Yeah. 

[00:24:24] Chris: That's totally fair. You know, as you said, right, this medical insurance machinery is churning along, not always creating the best outcomes for everyone. There are bright spots. There's places where, where it's working. Is there, is there something that like the common person can do to help in that in any way?

[00:24:39] Chris: Or are we just subject of waiting for you to fix it for us? 

[00:24:43] Marisol: That's a great question. You know, something I've been thinking a lot about recently is the bias that's inherent in AI and cognitive computing today. I think that's being brought out onto a more global stage with all the technologies that have been in place since these.

[00:24:57] Marisol: Technologies have come to market. I think that is something that's really important to learn about and to continue to advocate for there's an intrinsic degree of bias in everything that we do, and ultimately we're subjective beings. We will never be bias free, but you know, relative to technology, maybe scrutinizing your own internal bias and seeing how it may be.

[00:25:16] Marisol: Negatively affecting the things that you do. 

[00:25:18] Chris: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think that's an interesting point that, you know, one of the things I think I see happening that gives me some hope in all of this. Is that because we're looking at these AI systems now and saying, Oh, wait, that's biased like that decision was influenced by something that shouldn't have been influenced by as we're peeling back that onion, we're realizing, Oh, well, where did that bias come from?

[00:25:39] Chris: It comes from the people who either generated the data, found the data, trained the data, whatever. So these biases are actually in all of us. Yes. Um, and I'm hoping that we can actually like. AI almost becomes a little bit of a mirror to ourselves where we realize that like there are some biases here that need to be dealt with.

[00:25:54] Chris: It's not the machine that's the problem. It's the bias and the machine didn't create the bias. 

[00:25:59] Marisol: We created bias, but where did it come from? 

[00:26:02] Chris: It came from us, right? Um, yeah. And I mean, I can talk about that for a long time. I think there's some evolutionary forces at play there and some, some other things, but, um, we'll leave it there for now.

[00:26:09] Chris: Okay. Um, Marisol, thank you so, so, so much for sharing your story with the Imposter Syndrome Network. I think this was very valuable and thank you. To all of our listeners, for your time, your attention, and your support, if you found this episode insightful or interesting, please consider paying it forward by letting others know about this show and the great guests we have on.

[00:26:28] Chris: Before we turn off the mics, Marisol, I do have one more question. Sure. I wonder if you could tell us what you think the most valuable lesson you've learned in your career so far is. 

[00:26:40] Marisol: You know, I think that lesson is If the shoe doesn't fit, don't force it because it will break and it will break you. You know, I think it's um, an ongoing sort of quest to understand, to learn when it's time to leave a job, a situation, a relationship.

[00:27:00] Marisol: It's, it's sometimes difficult to understand if you should continue to try and fix it or if it's best for you to try something new, that's something, you know, certainly I'm, don't regret the situations that I've gone through, um, because it's brought me to where I am today, but. You know, I think there also could have been a favorable outcome.

[00:27:19] Marisol: Had I known, um, for example, when to leave. So if the flower doesn't grow, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower. So, um, trust you in your intuition, trust your instincts. If it doesn't feel good, then it's probably not good for you. So 

[00:27:34] Chris: I absolutely love that. If the flower doesn't grow, we change the environment, not the flower.

[00:27:38] Chris: Exactly. That's a great place to leave it. And we will be back next week.