Machines made this, mistakes and all...

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello, and welcome to the final episode of the imposter syndrome network. This is where everyone belongs, especially those of you who think you don't. And it is with a heavy heart, but excitement for the future that Zoe Rose and I, Chris Grundemann are going to. Shut down the imposter syndrome network podcast, at least for now with this, the hundredth episode.

[00:00:33] Chris: So hi Zoe. Hey. Hey. We thought it would be kind of cool for the last episode to just share our thoughts. Maybe look back over some of the episodes that really stand out in our minds, talk about the things we've learned or why this was valuable to us. So hopefully this episode is interesting. I think, um, like many of our episodes, it should be cathartic for us at least, uh, and hopefully also entertaining or informative.

[00:00:58] Chris: I don't know. We'll see. 

[00:00:59] Zoe: Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm not sure how, how educational I'm going to be, but, we'll see.

[00:01:10] Chris: I don't know, Zoe, I mean, maybe a place to start is just with some of the, you know, some of the things we learned. I've heard you sell, tell other people this, and I know I've felt the same way. And I've told people this, that, you know, outside of people actually listening to this podcast, which several hundreds did for every episode, which is amazing.

[00:01:27] Chris: Thank you. That's great. Hopefully there was a reason for that. Hopefully it, you know, meant something to you. But yeah, Zoe, I mean, like I said, I've heard you say, and I've said it myself, that even without the audience, just having these conversations was, was pretty powerful, educational, informative, entertaining.

[00:01:41] Chris: I mean, it was, it was an awesome experience doing this over these last couple of years, you know, I don't know what stands out for you as kind of, what are you taking away from this experience? 

[00:01:50] Zoe: I think going into it, I was kind of expecting to be different. Like not the journey to be different, but for me to be different.

[00:01:58] Zoe: And what I found was there were so many similarities in people's careers. You know, I know everybody likes to think, Oh, I'm so unique, but I'm not saying that I ever thought I was a unique person necessarily, but I just, I always felt like I was failing all the time and everyone else just knew what the bloody hell they were doing.

[00:02:18] Zoe: And I feel like. Even the people that I most admire and most trust, seeing their perspective, it was surprising that they struggled with similar things, you know, and what stood out was the themes constantly being similar things coming up and again and again, like how important community was in their career.

[00:02:38] Zoe: And, um, you know, Understanding that journey to understand what you actually like doing, because I've always found that so challenging, but it's almost refreshing to see other people also found that challenging. Like, what am I good at? I don't know. So I thought that was really, that was really cool. And it almost other people's struggles.

[00:02:59] Zoe: That sounds so negative, but other people's struggles did actually motivate me because it was highlighting that I wasn't unusual. You know, other people also dealt with that. You know, that's kind of the biggest takeaway for me. 

[00:03:11] Chris: Yeah, that's a huge one for me as well. And that was actually so slightly different from my experience because that like really starting to have that realization was kind of an impetus behind even starting the podcast in the first place.

[00:03:24] Chris: Right. I think, I know we've talked about this on previous episodes where, you know, when I first started, when, when I got invited by Stephen Foskett to like the tech field day events and showed up with all, you know, these other influencers. And then started talking to them, obviously felt completely out of place.

[00:03:38] Chris: Like I'm not an influencer. Right. And I think you've had the same experience and then started talking to other people. And they're like, yeah, I don't know why we're here either. And I was like, Oh, wait a minute. Like, I'm not the only one who thinks that I don't belong and I don't know what I'm doing and that I don't qualify.

[00:03:51] Chris: And I was like, Oh, shoot, if this group of people, right, who are mostly influencers, most of them are people who I've either listened to or read their blogs or, you know, whatever, feel this way, then I think probably others do too. And then you're right, like from the very beginning of actually doing the podcast that came out, I think our first episode, Ethan Banks was gracious enough to kind of come on as a guest for our first episode.

[00:04:13] Chris: Um, Ethan Banks from Packet Pushers. And, you know, even in that very first episode, I think one of the things he talked about was that, you know, people see opportunities and hesitate because they don't know if they can do it. And, and his advice was give it a shot. Like you, you won't ever know until you try.

[00:04:28] Chris: I think actually I just read a quote this morning from Zig Ziglar that said something about, you know, not everyone who starts is great, but everyone who's great started something like that. I don't know. You know, that, that push forward. And then even, you know, we talked to somebody who's at least from my side of on the network side looms really, really large.

[00:04:46] Chris: Who's Vint Cerf, you know, we talked to Vint Cerf, the, you know, the godfather or the father, the grandfather, however you want to do it. You know, one of the people who created TCP IP protocol and the institutions that then became the internet pretty amazing and has had a successful career since then, right.

[00:04:59] Chris: He didn't stop working at that point. And he kind of said the same thing, right? He's like, you're going to need help, right? You can't do this stuff alone. Um, you know, the smart thing to do is to recognize that if you want to do anything big, you need help. And you need to find people who are smarter than you.

[00:05:12] Chris: Um, which I think is the other side of that, which is if you can't accept that you belong, it's really, really hard to surround yourself with people smarter than you without feeling bad about it. Um, and so I think these things go together. 

[00:05:24] Zoe: Well, I can't remember who it was. When I took my new job, I told them, I don't know if I'm going to be good enough.

[00:05:29] Zoe: And I was on maternity leave at the time when I accepted the new position. And actually I was pregnant when I interviewed for it. So full disclosure, there was a lot of hormones going around. Um, and they said to me, it's almost like you need a community to support you. And I know they were being like sarcastic, but I sat there and I took that and I was like, I never considered that.

[00:05:50] Zoe: Like, I always talk about how important community is, how much it's helped my career, but then I always forget that, like, I'm discrediting it by saying, well, I'm not good enough to do this because I've done things in the past and I'm belittling not just myself, but other people that believe in me. And it's almost like I'm guilting myself to be motivated because yeah, it is.

[00:06:11] Zoe: I think it's one thing to be told that community is, is important. It's one thing to be told that, yeah, everybody suffers from imposter syndrome, but it's a whole nother thing to actually understand what that means. And I think every episode that I did record with you on, obviously I wasn't all of them because I did have some time I had to take off, but um, it was almost like a, a kind of reinforce, uh, reinforcement saying, you know.

[00:06:35] Zoe: Yes, what you think is actually true. What you're, what you've been saying is actually true. You know, the other people are struggling, but you know, they work together and they're growing and you're struggling, but you're working with other people and you're growing. And it's almost like, yeah, I don't know.

[00:06:50] Zoe: Therapy sessions. 

[00:06:52] Chris: Yeah. There were several guests that talked about, you know, after the end of the episode, after we stopped recording, they're like, Oh, that felt like therapy. Like getting to talk about some of this stuff is, is fun. But I think I want to jump into your comment about community because this is something that's come up for me even more recently, more viscerally, I guess, but you're right.

[00:07:08] Chris: It was a big thing, right? That came up through kind of I think that's a big trend through all of the, you know, 98 interviews we did with with I. T. Professionals across the world and across different industries. Was, you know, to sum up kind of, I think the biggest idea was it's all about people, right? And that's boils down to communication skills, right?

[00:07:27] Chris: Being able to understand other people's ideas and sell your own ideas, right? Even if you're an individual contributor, being able to communicate, be able to talk, talk to people about technology and be able to push things around is good. And then, of course, that communication then creates relationships.

[00:07:40] Chris: Um, and of course, one of the best ways to kind of create and maintain relationships is in community. And there's this idea of like being able to be supported by the community. So I think, you know, inside of this big theme of, it's all about people, community definitely came out again and again and same thing, right?

[00:07:53] Chris: I definitely kind of shook my head. Yes. When people were talking about, you know, whether they went to a conference or they found a tribe on Twitter or, you know, whatever that thing was that gave them that sense of community and this group of folks that they could kind of reach out to and get supported and get help from.

[00:08:08] Chris: You know, and I think similar to what you just said, right? I've, I've, I've kind of always know, well, maybe, you know, kind of always known that or known that for quite a while anyway, but I don't know that I've ever really embraced it. And I think, you know, I've been one to always really try to go it alone.

[00:08:23] Chris: And it's funny, you know, now I'm in my forties and I find myself kind of like going back to like rebuild the stuff that I spent 20 years tearing down. Right. Cause I wanted to go do it on my own. And now I'm kind of coming back and be like, you know what, though, it'd be really cool to just to be able to ask for help.

[00:08:38] Chris: Um, sure, maybe I can do it on my own, but why, why not have like a group of friends around me who I really trust and like rely on and we can rely on each other. Anyway, so personally for me, I'm kind of going through this phase of like really. So what you said resonated with me, this idea of community and really accepting the idea of community and accepting help and receiving love and support from other people, which, at least for me personally, is, has been hard.

[00:09:00] Zoe: Yeah, well my sister, my sister described me as fiercely independent. not as an, well, I mean, she said as, you know, that's how she would describe me. Um, not to like criticize me or anything, but I remember thinking, why does she describe me as that? Because I don't feel like that. And then I did do kind of a self assessment, I suppose, in the last year, um, becoming a single mom, having a second child and, you know, going on it alone again.

[00:09:28] Zoe: And I did realize there was a lot of things that I'm nervous about. There's a lot of things that I'm feel like I'm not good enough for, but that point you made about, but why do we have to do it alone? Like, why am I so fiercely independent? And it's almost like these beliefs that I had that when there's nobody there to help me because nobody wants to help me.

[00:09:46] Zoe: And then realizing that, well, maybe it's not that they don't want to, it's that I haven't given them the opportunity to. And Jason Eastreet, one of, for his episode, uh, the quote we have for him was. Fear is telling you to be alert, to be aware that you're in unknown territory, but fear is not supposed to stop you.

[00:10:05] Zoe: It goes on, but that, that was, that really kind of sticks out to me is fear is not supposed to stop you. It's supposed to make you aware. It's supposed to make you think about it, but that doesn't mean you can't go on, you know? And I, I think for me, I'm almost afraid of asking for help or admitting I can't do something on my own.

[00:10:22] Zoe: I'm definitely scared of failing. But on the same time, chatting to other people that also had these fears but were able to succeed and move past them, it's almost really reassuring. And after this last year of realizing I do need a community here, especially with two children and having to rely on other people when I never did before, um, it definitely is making me reassess.

[00:10:47] Zoe: How I viewed the world before and reassess how I kind of approach things and being in this new role, as I said, I'm really enjoying it, but it's a bigger team. And so I do need to rely on other people because time wise I just physically can't do all of the work anyway. So it's, it's, it is, it's been an interesting kind of almost self discovery.

[00:11:06] Zoe: I've really enjoyed that part. And then another one is, uh, Stephanie talked about how humans are not programmable, but we are teachable. And the only way we learn is if somebody is willing to take the time to say, this is what I need. I learned a lot in her episode because she talks about communication and, um, relationships and kind of building trust, but that one I really liked because I struggle to communicate my thoughts.

[00:11:33] Zoe: I struggle to communicate my emotions. I don't really understand my emotions half the time, um, but, um, And that goes back to their whole weird diagnosis of, Oh, you have all the traits of autism, but you're also traumatized. So you 

[00:11:47] Chris: never 

[00:11:49] Zoe: know the comment that made me laugh was you could get better. It was like, I didn't know what was wrong.

[00:11:54] Zoe: But anyway. Um, no, like. One thing for me is, I'll keep the peace, you know, I'll keep things okay, and then I might think later, I might think back on a situation and be like, no, I'm not happy with that, or no, that didn't make sense to me, and acknowledging that sometimes I need that time to process. And I'm not as instant as other people allows me kind of to give myself almost like a break and be like, okay, it's okay for me to reassess the situation once it's passed.

[00:12:22] Zoe: Even in work, like in personal life that happens, but at work often I might think, oh, I can't go back to that person because you know, this issue has been resolved. But then thinking they're human as well. And if I have a chat with them and say, this is what's concerning me, often they're more than willing to work with you.

[00:12:39] Zoe: But I have to actually communicate that. I have to verbalize it. 

[00:12:42] Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. And I think it works both ways, right? I think, you know, telling people what you want, asking for help are both really hard, right? I definitely have done that quite a bit in my life. I think where I've decided I want something and then never told anyone and then get really mad later that I didn't get that thing.

[00:13:01] Chris: Right. And I mean, not necessarily mad at those people, but, but sometimes Like, why didn't you give me this thing that I never asked you for? And again, same thing, right? Personal relationships, work relationships, and it all goes around. I think in one of the early episodes, Nate, Nathaniel Avery talked about that, right?

[00:13:14] Chris: He said, you know, not to be afraid to ask, to tell people, you know, I want this. Um, and I think Grant Colgan kind of said the same thing. He's like, you know, which is the old cliche, right? The worst thing that can happen is someone can say no. And then you're just at the same spot as if you hadn't asked, right?

[00:13:29] Chris: Maybe with the real reason to be mad now, because you actually asked at least. And, and part of this, I think is what I was thinking about the other side of that, which is something that comes up for me a lot, which is this idea of the curse of knowledge, which is this idea that, uh, once we know something, once a person knows something, once I know something, I kind of assume that everyone else knows that thing.

[00:13:51] Chris: And so this happens a lot in, in technology, but I think in a lot of other places too, where like you go off and you, you create a solution to the problem and then you forget to tell anyone because you've solved it and you know, it's done and you know how to fix it, but you got to tell the people and I see this a lot, right?

[00:14:05] Chris: When people are talking to each other. And somebody is like, Oh, well, you just do that thing. And the other person's like, no, that doesn't work. And what actually happens is, well, there's five other steps that you need to do before the thing that this person just naturally does, you know? And, and, and I think, but that, I think that also translates to this whole thing of like desire and community and relationships where it's not just the technical pieces that we kind of have this curse of knowledge about.

[00:14:27] Chris: It's our own desires, our own passions that we may be, if we don't talk about them, we, you know, we, we kind of assume, Oh, well, I'm looking for this thing at work or in this relationship or in this situation. And so you kind of like unconsciously assume that the other person either wants the same thing or knows that you want that thing, which is just not true.

[00:14:45] Zoe: Yeah. Well, that's why Stephanie's episode was so interesting to me, I suppose, because that's one thing in therapy I always talk about this is I always view the world as how I view it. You know, like I, I think people think the same way as me. I think people have the same mindset, the same motivations, same goals.

[00:15:03] Zoe: Logically, I know that's not true, but I still fall back to, well, why are you doing this? You know, what, what is your motivation here? I mean, recently I had a bicycle stolen and then set on fire. Um, long story there, and I'm like, why in the world would they do this? Like, what is the benefit to them? You know, and I just, I kept going over that over and over again.

[00:15:23] Zoe: I'm like, they're not making money, they're not benefiting in any way. And then I had to stop and realize, yeah, but the goal isn't, I mean, to set something on fire, your goal is not to make money, usually, um, unless it's insurance fraud, I suppose. But, um, but you know, your goal is destruction. That was their goal and they achieved their goal.

[00:15:41] Zoe: So I have to remember, I mean, that's a bad example, but I have to remember that people They have different goals, they have different motivations. And I think that makes me a better manager because the first thing I did when I joined the team is I said, what motivates you? And I asked all my team, like my direct reports, what motivates you?

[00:15:59] Zoe: And we worked through how can I manage them more effectively based on how they're motivated. And hopefully, I mean, obviously I can't speak for them, but I would hope that would make me a better manager and more effective in the way that I work. Collaborate with them. I also really liked the topic of failure because I was always terrified of failing throughout my entire career.

[00:16:21] Zoe: And now it's almost like, yeah, I don't want to fail, but I also am like, okay, but if I failed in this, how do I respond to it? You know, it's not, oh my goodness, I failed like it was when I started my career. Now it's, okay, I failed, but how do I fix that? And it's almost like, I'm not losing my motivations as quickly as I did in the past.

[00:16:41] Zoe: I think Lisa and Steve, uh, Lisa Forte and Steve Dodd both talked about failure specifically and Steve's quote was, rock climbing is a practice of failure. Obviously he talks more about the concept of, you know, you're failing a lot, you're expecting to fail. And I think Lisa talks about the same thing, but it's how you respond to that that's important.

[00:17:00] Zoe: And I think that really resonates with me because I fail a lot. I fail all the time. I'm a parent. Do you know how many times I fail in a day? But, but it's the, the concept of, okay, I know that that didn't work, but how are we going to address it differently? And, and that mindset shift is almost like, I don't know, it took a long time to get there, but I finally feel a little bit more motivated and a little bit more effective because I can acknowledge when I fail and I can grow from it.

[00:17:27] Zoe: And I allow myself to grow from it, you know? 

[00:17:29] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I think that was another big theme kind of woven throughout the podcast so far is that just, and there's a couple different sides to it, right? I think the way I summed it up in my head was kind of being willing to fail, I think was a big part of that.

[00:17:43] Chris: Because there's a lot of pieces to that, right, which is, you know, the willingness to fail is all about kind of putting yourself out there, right? The just do it kind of mentality, or, you know, try that thing out, which we talked about a little bit already, but, you know, not being your own gatekeeper. I think that's something actually, we talked about this a little bit in the last episode when you were interviewing me.

[00:18:04] Chris: And at the end, you asked, you know, what, what my advice for younger Chris would be. And I think I messed it up. I, you know, what I said was like, take more risk. Right. I think what I meant was. Don't wait for permission. And I think that was the bigger thing was I think I spent a large part of my career. Now I did do a good job of like learning pieces and parts that I would need.

[00:18:24] Chris: So that was great. But I think I spent a large part of my career waiting for someone to give me permission to do the things I wanted to do. And what I've realized now is that I could have just done them. And most phases, and it was just a lack of confidence, um, maybe a lack of experience, but, but mostly a lack of confidence.

[00:18:41] Chris: And just this idea that, you know, again, it's back to that imposter syndrome and am I good enough? And am I asking for what I want or, you know, while waiting for them to give it to me? I think, you know, early in my career, I even thought like, Oh, I can't ask for a promotion. I have to like, wait until it's offered for it to be like, Real.

[00:18:54] Chris: Like if I'm asking for it, then it's not like a real, I don't know, some weird stuff goes on in people's heads. Right. But, um, but still putting yourself out there, I think it's part of this willingness to fail, right? Like going out and doing stuff. And then to your point, right? Learning from those mistakes.

[00:19:07] Chris: And, and, you know, part of that is like this, you know, defaulting to action and knowing that growth is uncomfortable. I think we did have, yeah. Quite a few guests talk about that. 

[00:19:16] Zoe: Well, that, that triggered a thought for me is, um, I think one journey that I've definitely taken is that recognizing when I need to take a break, because prior to this podcast, I did have a situation where I did have burnout and it took me a very long time to recover from it.

[00:19:34] Zoe: And I don't think I'm. I will ever be back to the place that I was pre burnout, but, but recognizing when I need a break was so bloody hard. And I would just get myself to the point where I'm so exhausted, I would take holiday, but my holiday would just be me recovering, you know, it wasn't actually enjoying it.

[00:19:53] Zoe: And the other day I was thinking about my career and, and one of the quotes from Katie, uh, Katie Collin, Collin, I say her name wrong, um, she's lovely, but, um, she talks about doing what's best for you, you know, and part of it is you'll not regret spending time with your kids. And for me, What you said about, you know, giving yourself permission or waiting for somebody to give you permission.

[00:20:20] Zoe: That's kind of how I would view it. I always kind of viewed, well, I need to take a break, but I don't have permission to take a break or, you know, I need to get this done or, or booking a holiday, well, I've got my calendar full. I can't do, you know, and then only recently I've realized I'm starting to not enjoy things right now.

[00:20:37] Zoe: Why am I not enjoying it? Is it because it's the work I don't enjoy, or is it because. I'm getting close to that burnout thing again, you know, and I've actually, I started taking a couple of days here and there off so that I can kind of recover without having to get to the point where I can't work anymore, you know, and I think part of the journey and learning in the last year.

[00:20:57] Zoe: definitely benefited by this podcast is recognizing the signs before they become too much and recognizing when I need to stop and think, am I okay? Or am I just telling myself I'm okay and I'm waiting for permission to take a break? 

[00:21:10] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. That resonates with me a lot. For sure. I had a really morbid thought as you were early on and you were talking about that.

[00:21:15] Chris: You said something about, you know, maybe not quite being the same post burnout as, as pre burnout. And I just like had this like, like visualization of life being this kind of like, work really hard, burn out, and then kind of not ever really quite recover and then just keep, you know, just a series of burnouts until, you know, you die.

[00:21:31] Zoe: But I do, I did feel like that for a long time. And now I will say I'm happier. And weirdly enough, do you remember when we recorded mine? Yeah. 

[00:21:42] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:21:42] Zoe: I remember sitting there talking to you, realizing. I'm actually happy, you know, and, and it was, it was like this weird moment where I'm just like, wait, I'm happy, you know?

[00:21:53] Zoe: And I know that sounds ridiculous, but you have to remember, I did go through a big change in my life very recently. I did have a baby. That is a lot of hormones. That is a lot of changes. That's a lot to take in all at once. 

[00:22:06] Chris: You're dealing with a lot too. It's a lot of activity, a lot of stress. Like, yeah.

[00:22:10] Zoe: Yeah. And so, you realizing that I'm actually happy and then realizing I can take time to myself. I'm allowed to, you know, nobody has to say, Zoe, you're allowed to take a break. Now you're allowed to book holiday. Um, when you get a senior, as I am in a role, your boss is not going to be like, Zoe, you should take some holiday.

[00:22:28] Zoe: No, they're going to wait for you to request it. They know you're an adult and they think that you, you know, think about yourself sometimes. And the bit with Katie saying, you know, you're not going to regret the time with your children. And I always feel guilty because I'm like, Oh, I'm going to take some time off.

[00:22:44] Zoe: And because I want to take my children out to do something or am I being a bad employee? And then I remember my boss's boss interviewing me for this role. And he said, you know, Kids are only young for a certain amount of time. And I remember sitting there, I just had a baby. So my baby was in the other room with a lady.

[00:23:01] Zoe: Uh, she was watching him or him. And she would watch her whilst I was sat there talking to him. And I remember being like, but you're interviewing me for a job. Why are you telling me that I can take breaks? You know, why are you telling me to prioritize my family? How weird is this? But I just, I felt like that was a moment where I'm like, I don't need to feel guilty about wanting time for my children because my boss's boss has just told me it's okay, you know, and then, and then through this kind of journey and hearing other people saying, yeah, well, I took time off or I, I did this or I did this because this is what I wanted.

[00:23:34] Zoe: It was almost like that permission. Everybody just was kind of giving me permission and I was like, I'm finally ready to accept that almost. Yeah. 

[00:23:43] Chris: Awesome. Awesome. And I think that's good reminder for, you know, folks who are managers and stuff, or when we're in management positions is to make sure you remember to tell people that it's okay to do these things.

[00:23:52] Chris: Because I had the same experience, I think for, I mean, almost even the opposite of like permission, I think for a long time in my early career, anyway, I thought of it as like a badge of honor. If I was working, you know, six or seven, 12 hour days, and I didn't take time off, you know, it didn't take any vacation for two or three years, like.

[00:24:09] Chris: That was like meant I was doing it right. You know, which also when I was younger, I could do that. Um, I don't know that I could pull that off anymore. Maybe that's part of the reason, like part of the wisdom of old age is just actually like, 

[00:24:21] Chris: Oh, I 

[00:24:21] Chris: can't do that anymore. I have to take care of myself now. I realized I need to take time off.

[00:24:25] Chris: I need to go to sleep. I don't know, but, but I do believe that if I had done more of that earlier, I would have been able to be more productive. I think that then, because I think, you know, what I find now is like, I get to a point where I'm like, okay, I can keep working. I can, I can will myself to keep working.

[00:24:41] Chris: But mostly what I do is sit here and like click around on a screen and don't actually get much done. And I think I did a bit of that, you know, when my younger days was like, I just need to keep working. But like, are you actually being effective? Are you, are you prioritizing right? Are you thinking clearly enough?

[00:24:53] Chris: You know, if you've done, you know, 60 hours, 70 hours, 80 hours for six, seven, eight, nine, 10 weeks in a row, are you really at peak performance? Even in your early 20s, I kind of doubt that you are. I mean, there's superstars out there, but not that many. 

[00:25:06] Zoe: No, I agree with you. I agree with you. And also, I would say part of my way of giving back, like everybody talks about, you know, sharing knowledge.

[00:25:13] Zoe: Everybody talks about how important, you know, giving a conference talk or doing mentoring or whatever. But one thing that I think that I've tried to do in my position at work is, I always have interns, yeah? I think they're very, very important for one, getting fresh eyes, two, sharing knowledge, but three, almost like I view them as little Zoe and when she started her career and all the things that she got wrong and I want to help them not make the mistakes I make.

[00:25:42] Zoe: So, I tell them, you know. you can take time off, like if they're sick. I remember recently, um, somebody was like, Oh, you know, I'm not feeling well. So I'm going to work from home. And I was like, okay, tell me if you're going to work from home or if you're going to take it off, because if you need to take time off, that's okay.

[00:25:56] Zoe: That is expected. Um, don't feel guilty. Just let me know, you know, and, and, and, uh, I remember with one of my interns, uh, I was talking to her about, what she, what she could expect from other managers and explaining my mindset and how I manage and how I view being a manager and how I've had other managers and where they've been successful and where they've not been successful for both sides.

[00:26:21] Zoe: Like where I wasn't effective, where they weren't effective. And I feel like that's, that's, that's, That's just as important as explaining how DNS works, as explaining how vulnerabilities work, explaining how whatever technology you want to look at works, just as important as explaining how the people side of, um, your career works and how I can show them places where I failed because I didn't understand it properly in the beginning.

[00:26:45] Zoe: And it took me years to understand it. And it actually, in my opinion, in some situations really negatively impacted my career. 

[00:26:51] Chris: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So those two things, right? I think modeling that behavior is really important, right? Like if you're a manager, you should also like take weekends, take time off and things, because if you can tell people all day, Oh, you know, take care of yourself, do whatever, if you don't model that behavior, then people kind of.

[00:27:10] Chris: Don't listen to the words. They listen to the actions. I think typically, right? Not, maybe not everyone, but I think it's good to do both. 

[00:27:15] Zoe: Well, that's, that's how children learn. And I'm not trying to say my colleagues are children to be clear. I'm not being a condescending, 

[00:27:22] Chris: but I was watching a movie recently and the one guy, he's like talking to this kid and he's like, so you don't know the secret.

[00:27:29] Chris: Adults are just children without supervision. That's the only thing that's changed here. 

[00:27:35] Zoe: That's pretty accurate in my case, to be fair. I have no idea what I'm doing. Um, but you know, like becoming a mother for me was a really scary thing. It was really scary. I was terrified. And I remember I have a little journal for my children, both of them, that I write them letters, not as frequently as I'd like to, but I write them letters that I'll give them when they're older.

[00:27:55] Zoe: The theme of my eldest's first part of the journal is being so terrified of being good enough and being so terrified that I won't be able to model a loving home and a loving relationship because I struggled with that for a very long time. And being a manager, I, again, I'm not trying to be condescending.

[00:28:13] Zoe: My, Direct reports are for adults, they're, you know, they're very good at what they do, but, but if I can't model a healthy work life balance, I hate using that term, but if I can't model being healthy at work, then how the bloody hell do I expect them to be, you know, um, and it's little things like I try really hard to pay attention to the time and not message people at lunchtime, you know, and not message people when they're done for the day, unless I make it clear that they don't have to respond unless.

[00:28:44] Zoe: You know, it's urgent, like we do have standby and all of that. So, you know, in some cases you do have to, but, um, you know, unless they actually need to, you know, I try to do that and I, I'm not always perfect, but I do try and I make a conscious decision when I, for example, interview people or give their reviews, you know, their quarterly or annual review.

[00:29:05] Zoe: And I say, consciously, I think about why am I. approving this, like, why do I think this person did a great job? You know, why do I think they did a bad job? You know, why, what is my mindset there? So that I can remove the unconscious bias at the best of my ability, but also think of it from a healthy perspective.

[00:29:23] Zoe: Like, Did this person do a brilliant job because they were working non stop and I need to support them to reduce the amount of time they're working? Or did this person do a brilliant job because, you know, they're doing a really good job, blah, blah, blah. You know, like, I need to be able to model it in my own, but I also need to manage it and make sure that they also can do that as well.

[00:29:43] Zoe: You know, just, I don't know if I made sense there. 

[00:29:45] Chris: Yeah, yeah, it does, does for sure. And that's something that is scary for me to admit, but like, I have a really hard time, I think, judging other people's performance. That's one of the things I'm probably worst at as a manager. And I think some of it is exactly that, right?

[00:29:59] Chris: I have this like conflict a little bit of like, on the one hand, I can very easily, in most cases, right? If like, see the output, like, what did I need you to do? What did we need you to do? And like what actually got done? Okay. And, and that's a really easy bar, I think. And I try to focus on that. But then there's this other piece which is like, okay, but I saw you in that hamster wheel running full tilt for the last three weeks.

[00:30:21] Chris: So I get that like, you know, you, you worked hard, you 

[00:30:25] Zoe: achieved it, 

[00:30:26] Chris: and there's so, but like you didn't. Get the job done. Um, so like, how do we, you know, how do I rectify this in a way that's like effective? Yeah. And then, and then like you said, I think kind of that I, what you, the way you described is really good.

[00:30:38] Chris: Like, how do I model this out? Where's the challenge, right? Are we, have we set up the wrong environment or are you lacking skills? Are you working on the wrong thing? Like, like, right. Or, you know, are we giving you the wrong priorities? Like, how do we fix this? Which actually reminds me of one of our guests, Marisol.

[00:30:52] Chris: And she said something, what did she say? She said, when a flower is not doing well, you don't try to like change the flower, you repot it, right? You, you change this environment, you give it new soil, you give it nutrients, you give it, you put it in the sunlight, you give it more water, whatever. Um, you don't actually try and go in and like, you know, genetically modify or like start cutting, you know, you don't try to change the flower.

[00:31:10] Chris: And I think that's a really interesting way of looking at people and management, is like, you know, what's the environment that's ideal for this person? 

[00:31:18] Zoe: Yeah, no, 100%. And I think, I've always been told, oh, you know, managing high performers is easy. It's managing the challenging people that's hard. And it's true.

[00:31:27] Zoe: That is true. But, but it's also having the skill to identify why they're being challenging. Like, most people are not challenging on purpose. You know, my toddler, I say most and not, not always, um, my toddler does not have a tantrum because she wants to be rude to me. You know, she doesn't fight me on something cause she's mad at me generally.

[00:31:52] Zoe: She's a toddler. She's not trying to manipulate me. I know there's people that believe that and I disagree with their philosophy, but anyway, that's another discussion, but she's not, she's tantruming because she doesn't know how to deal with her emotion. You know, she's, she, she wants something, she can't have it, and it makes her angry, and she doesn't know how to deal with that emotion.

[00:32:11] Zoe: You know, colleagues, direct reports, if they're not achieving something, maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe, um, I thought that they, understood the goal. Or maybe they're just taking a different approach and it's not working because they don't have the right skills or they don't have the right resources or, you know, there's many, many reasons why they could not be achieving something.

[00:32:33] Zoe: It could also be back to your point of they just don't take breaks. And so their mind is so tired that they just can't achieve it because they need to take a bloody break. You know, so getting to the root cause, I mean, I love root cause analysis. When it comes to data breaches, we do root cause analysis, we do lessons learned.

[00:32:52] Zoe: So why don't we do that when it comes to somebody not succeeding? You know, like, maybe it's, they've got a challenging situation at home. I know that when I started career, I was always told, you don't bring your personal life to work. But I think that's rubbish now. I mean, my personal life affects my work.

[00:33:08] Zoe: It affects my ability to be effective. And if I need to take a day off because I've had a difficult night, because I've got two children. Then maybe I need to do that. It's going to be better than me pushing through and coming into the office. 

[00:33:21] Chris: Yeah. Yeah, it is indeed. Absolutely. And I think that idea of like root cause analysis for, you know, just in general, right for, for, for, you know, how we, you know, manage, you know, ourselves, each other, I think is really interesting.

[00:33:34] Chris: And that did come up a couple of times on the podcast. I'm trying to remember who all talked about it, but several guests, right. Talked about this idea of like, you know, the best way to deal with failure, like, especially like technology failure, right. Although I've, you know, I, I bricked a firewall or I, you know, I took down a router or whatever it might be is, you know, as much as possible, right.

[00:33:55] Chris: Find the process that needs to be improved, right. It's, you know, yes, someone was at the keyboard when that mistake happened, but in general, again, like you said, that person probably wasn't trying to take down. E911 for Minneapolis, right? That wasn't the goal of what that person was doing that day. They made a mistake and then you could blame them for making the mistake or for being dumb or whatever.

[00:34:14] Chris: But the better response is to figure out why they were able to make that mistake, right? Like what's the situation that was open, right? How do we, you know, do we need more tight controls? On when people log in or, or who logs in or, or what, what can be changed or 

[00:34:30] Zoe: distributing the actions 

[00:34:31] Chris: or testing changes before we put them into production.

[00:34:35] Chris: I mean, there's all these things that could go into, um, right. Like maybe don't test all our code in production. Maybe we should, uh, have a lab. I don't know, right. There's, you know, there's ways to come at this, which I think fits in with what you're saying. Right. Cause the root cause is almost never that that person is not capable or that person.

[00:34:53] Chris: Okay. Sometimes it is, right? 

[00:34:54] Zoe: And that's a valid point. 

[00:34:55] Chris: There is, there is definitely times where you actually get out of your depth, right? You're actually, you actually don't know what you're doing and you're like, 

[00:35:00] Zoe: but, but that's like, like I said, that's a valid point and maybe they do need training as a manager.

[00:35:05] Zoe: I should be identifying that and I should give them the training, you know, 

[00:35:09] Chris: there's your root cause, right? Yeah. Like they don't actually understand how OSPF works or how, you know, ACLs work or whatever it might be. 

[00:35:14] Zoe: I would hope in my position they do, but, but, but no, yeah, maybe they don't and maybe they need training, you know, and that's valid.

[00:35:22] Zoe: But I think as a manager, my job is to pay attention to that. And I feel like often we forget that. I don't even know what my rant is at this point, because we were talking about a podcast, but now I'm talking about being a manager, but. Well, we were 

[00:35:38] Chris: talking about being willing to fail, I think. Um, but I think, you know, which was a big one, right.

[00:35:42] Chris: A big theme. Um, and we did kind of rabbit hole there, but. I think what you just said, though, reminds me of kind of coming back to this other piece, which was another big theme. From my perspective, kind of the three biggest themes was kind of, it's all about people be willing to fail and then get comfortable not knowing things, which, which is part of this like training and that kind of stuff, you know, you don't need to wait around for your manager to realize that you don't know something to learn.

[00:36:06] Chris: You can be adding skills yourself all the time. And, and I think we heard this from, I mean, not every single guest. But definitely, you know, out of the 98 people we had on a real or 97 people we had on a really high percentage of folks talked about this idea of like, you are never going to know it all.

[00:36:23] Chris: That's not a thing. It's not even possible in the, you know, maybe in the caveman days it was possible to like put all human knowledge into your brain. I don't know, but definitely not today. Um, you're not going to read the whole internet or the whole, you know, library of Congress or, and, and remember it, like this is not going to happen.

[00:36:38] Zoe: So read the internet, 

[00:36:41] Chris: right. That also may have been possible at one point, but it's no longer. 

[00:36:44] Zoe: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. 

[00:36:46] Chris: Um, so you have to be comfortable not knowing things. Right. And, and that, which then means you have to be comfortable. Telling people you don't know things, which can be really terrifying for knowledge workers and especially folks who are technologists who I think have, you know, we rest our identity on our intelligence, what we know in a lot of ways.

[00:37:03] Zoe: Yeah, but I think, I think a lot of the time it's, as you get more senior, you realize this, you know that you don't know everything. What's that graph called? Where it's like knowledge and experience, and then you start out with none. And then as you get more senior, it goes, uh, peaks really high. And then you get.

[00:37:20] Zoe: Oh no, it's experience and the knowledge on the side or something. And then you get to a senior position, it drops all the way down. Cause you're like, I don't know bloody anything. And then it slowly comes up and you're like, okay, I know a little bit, you know, but, but in the middle, it's that false confidence that you think, you know, everything.

[00:37:35] Zoe: And I feel like that's, you know, Also relevant when it comes to like thinking you need to know everything. You're like, yeah, no, I definitely know everything. But I also think I need to know everything. And I can't admit when I'm failing. And I can't admit when I don't know. And then you get senior enough and you're like, what is word?

[00:37:52] Zoe: You don't know anything. And you're like, yeah, okay. Computer, just computer, you know? And, and even now, like in my team, it used to be I would go and I'd figure it out. I'd Google it. I'd watch YouTube videos, whatever. Because I had to know the answer. Now I'll ping my team and be like, how do I do this? You know, yeah, I'm your boss, but you work on this day to day.

[00:38:11] Zoe: I work on it much less frequently, you know. So explain to me what you think is the best approach here or what you think or how I do this. And then I'll use my experience. I'll use their experience and I'll combine it and then we'll make a much more informed decision. I mean, yes, there's situations where I have to make this call and I do alone, but there's a lot of decisions that make sense to collaborate.

[00:38:33] Zoe: But if I'm not willing to acknowledge, I don't know, I'm going to make the wrong decision more likely than not. 

[00:38:39] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Almost always. I mean, well, there's a couple of things that are right. One. I think it's in a Mark Twain book somewhere where he says something about, you know, it's not the things that people don't know that gets them in trouble.

[00:38:49] Chris: It's the things they think they know for sure, right. But really don't, um, and I'm, I'm screwing up the quote, but, uh, he, he said it much more poetically than I did. Yeah. But, but something along the lines, you know, which is important, right. That like, when you think you know something and you actually don't that, that's like the most dangerous situation to be in.

[00:39:05] Chris: That's when you make these like really dumb mistakes. Cause you're confidently doing something that you really shouldn't be doing. Which again goes back to the, you know, that that's when you fail and that's when you learn and that's part of growth. And so, you know, don't be too worried about that. Don't beat yourself up or it, when it happens.

[00:39:18] Chris: But, uh, but if you can avoid it by saying, I don't know, and really honestly thinking through, like, do I actually understand this? Which then that circles back to some of the communication stuff we talked about, right? Like, Oh, can you explain this to someone else? Can you explain this to your mom, your sister, your brother, your kid, you know, some random person at the cafe.

[00:39:35] Chris: Can you explain this highly technical topic to a lay person? Because if you can't. You may not know what you think, you know, 

[00:39:41] Zoe: yeah, definitely. 

[00:39:42] Chris: And the other piece of that, I think it was, um, Glenn decades or who said, don't get wrapped up in this, like identity of being smart. He's like, no one cares if you're smart, right?

[00:39:51] Chris: Really? No one cares how smart you are. What they care is what you can do for them. What value you're bringing. Can you get the job done? And so if your process is to go ask chat GPT and Google and being, and 16 forums and like find the answer on the spot and then do the thing versus you memorized all that information yourself.

[00:40:09] Chris: Other than maybe speed of execution, right? No one actually cares. What they care about is, is the result, right? What did you get done? How'd you get this done? Which I think is, is important to remember because I definitely like really, really rested my whole identity on being smart for a long time and, uh, have very slowly realized that no one cares.

[00:40:27] Zoe: Well, well, uh, Hammond did say, Hammond first said in an interview, you don't know the other person, so you can't disappoint them. And, um, I mean, Stripped away the context there. But um, it's almost like I've always viewed the world as if we are playing in a playbook, you know, the playbook, I think I mentioned in my episode as well, where you've got character A and they have words and the character B in their words.

[00:40:50] Zoe: That's how I viewed the world because I always thought that I was missing some either narrative or is missing some character in my playbook. And I didn't understand how people functioned. And I was so concerned about saying the right things, doing the right things, doing what's expected of me, and it took me forever to realize we're not in a bloody playbook, Zoe.

[00:41:10] Zoe: And also, she's right, like, people aren't going to be disappointed in you, generally, unless you hold yourself back, you know? Unless you fail because you're too scared to try. You know, that's what disappoints people, or if you're just a jerk, that is disappointing. That's fair. But, um, if you're being your honest self and you make a mistake, as a manager, I'm not disappointed.

[00:41:32] Zoe: I'd be disappointed if you didn't tell me. That would be a much bigger impact. But if you admit you make a mistake, we'll work through it. We'll find a solution. You know, if it's you don't have the skill, that's fine. Let's find training. Let's support you and let me teach you how to do it. Or let me to put you on this training course or whatever.

[00:41:48] Zoe: So I think. Getting over that feeling of, well, I don't want to disappoint them, so I don't want to say the wrong thing. I think that's really important in people's careers. Because in a meeting, if I'm sat in a room with a bunch of people and I'm looking at, you know, let's pretend they're all at the same grade level.

[00:42:03] Zoe: The people that I think will be promoted or should be promoted are not the ones that are like, I'm the most technical and I can answer all the questions. They're the people that are present. They're the people that know how to collaborate. They're the people that acknowledge their limitations and work with the other people that can help them.

[00:42:18] Zoe: And they're the people that build those personal relationships because they're going to be more effective than somebody that just knows the answer to everything. You know, because they can, the other person can identify where things overlap and where things need to connect and where collaboration is beneficial.

[00:42:34] Zoe: A person that has a skill and it's like super deep technical, that's great and needed, but isn't necessarily going to be the best manager in most situations. 

[00:42:44] Chris: Sure. Well, even the, or even the most, the best colleague, right. You know, we talked to Chris Mullater on the podcast and he talked about where he works.

[00:42:52] Chris: The reason he likes it really well is that he feels they have a very strict no assholes policy. And it's not even a written policy. It's just the fact like. Everyone there is so, you know, tuned on these frequencies that if you're an asshole, you really just totally feel out of place. You know, if you do get through the hiring process, you probably quit right away because it's just not accepted there.

[00:43:12] Chris: And it's not looked at, and I've definitely worked with a lot of people. I've probably been. that person in a lot of earlier jobs, where, you know, you can be a really, really high performing individual contributor and be a total mess to work around, right? To be someone who no one wants to actually work around.

[00:43:26] Chris: That's true. And that's actually not succeeding. And you probably won't have a great career if, you know, you bite everyone's head off whoever tries to talk to you, even though you may be spitting out flawless code in the corner somewhere. 

[00:43:38] Zoe: Well, but it also goes to the fact that people that like insecurity, if you are unreplaceable, or if you are somebody that is.

[00:43:46] Zoe: Like your organization is dependent on you. That is a risk. That is not a good situation. And I don't think people always understand that because if I am a hundred percent dependent on you, Chris, then if you go away, we're all fucked. You know, like, and that's not a good thing. So maybe you are the most technical.

[00:44:05] Zoe: Maybe you are the most elite excellence person ever in the world. You are fabulous. But we can't rely on you, you know, because you could die, you know, you could, you need to take a holiday, you could get sick, so, you know, or you might just be horrible to work with. So, yeah, I think it's that relationship is important, that collaboration is important, but that goes back to community and how important we talked about how that is. So, 

[00:44:30] Chris: yeah. Well, and more than that, I think, again, another one, uh, one of our early guests Enrico Signoretti, he said something along the lines of. That a team can't really grow with a bunch of single players, right? You know, when there's good team play, people are covering for each other. They're picking up after each other.

[00:44:45] Chris: And again, you know, so many people have echoed this, not just in our podcast, but everywhere there's like that proverb, right? If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And that's teamwork is really part of that. And so again, I think that's another piece of this, right? Is. Being part of a team and enabling the team to do something better than what any one individual could do on their own.

[00:45:03] Chris: And I think some of this stuff may come back to humility a little bit. I know another thing, um, Dinesh Dutt, who was actually our keynote speaker at the, at the last AutoCon, which was really cool, When he was on the podcast, the way he defined humility was by making life about learning and not about knowing, which I thought was a really kind of elegant, beautiful way to look at humility, especially in kind of again, like this technology and knowledge worker field that if you look at yourself as being a great knower of things.

[00:45:30] Chris: It kind of puts you in this ivory tower and kind of makes you less humble. Whereas if you're a great learner of things, there's always more to learn. There's always another step. There's always someone to learn from. You can learn from people around you. It just totally shifts your perspective, I think, and then kind of creates that humility, which makes you a better team player in general.

[00:45:44] Zoe: And Leslie Carr, um, one of our early episodes said, the happiest times of my months are when somebody doesn't think they can do something and I convince them to give it a try. And I like that because it's like, I could see what you're capable of, and you're holding yourself back, so I'm going to support you to get there.

[00:46:01] Zoe: And, I mean, as a manager, as a mother, as a human being, if I can support somebody to go further in their personal life, in their professional life, in any part of their life, that's bloody awesome. You know, and another thing is like, I'm not building a team to make myself look good. I'm building a team that's going to shine on their own, individually, and then as together, because they're all shiny people.

[00:46:23] Zoe: And, um, and I think that's my motivation. Not to say that I'm the best manager in the world. I'm sure I mess up all the time. Um, but I think my goal is there and I think, I don't know, I think it makes the team better than trying to be the fancy one, you know, trying to be the one that's got it all or knows it all.

[00:46:42] Zoe: Because again, that's going back to being a risk anyway. 

[00:46:45] Chris: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And often not fun to be around for sure. 

[00:46:49] Zoe: Yeah, no. That's rubbish to be around those people. Oh, 

[00:46:52] Chris: yeah. I'm glad you brought up that like Leslie Carr's episode. Actually, I think that that's one if you're like a new manager or thinking about being a manager, I think that's a really good one to listen to.

[00:47:00] Chris: She kind of gives a really subtle masterclass in, you know, what a good manager should be and do. And that quote you brought out is a big part of that, right? Just enabling other people. But she says it much better than I will, um, so she got the episode, you know, and I think in line with this, you know, a lot of this really kind of is, um, I don't know, emotionally triggering for me because I, you know, I definitely was that person for a long time, right?

[00:47:24] Chris: I think again, you know, going back to this idea that like I had kind of my whole identity wrapped up around being intelligent, you know, all the way back in like school when I couldn't figure out why I didn't have friends. Part of it was because I was like spouting off facts and correcting people constantly, right?

[00:47:38] Chris: I felt like it was more important to be right than to interact with other human beings. And that's something like, not, not just that specific trait, but what kind of some of that all the way through, through my career, I think I've found ways to At the time, what I thought was being really highly effective, right?

[00:47:54] Chris: And some of that was shutting out relationships and shutting out distractions and kind of ignoring people around me in order to like do more. It was also ignoring my own emotions and my own feelings as you've talked about a little bit, right? Like not really paying attention to what was going on with me and just kind of putting my head down and working.

[00:48:10] Chris: And the counterintuitive part I think is, you know, as I've been on this journey of kind of being better to be around, being a better person just in general. You know, there's these moments of kind of panic where I kind of start to think like, well, am I losing my edge? Am I losing that? Like that thing that made, you know, did, did I need to be twisted into this thing to be really productive and efficient?

[00:48:33] Chris: And as I'm unwinding this stuff. Now I have all these emotions I have to deal with. There's all these people I have to deal with, you know, and I think that I may be slightly less efficient than I was. And I think a lot of it actually kind of gives back, right? Like I was talking about, you know, taking care of yourself and refreshing yourself if I work a few less hours a week, but spend those hours kind of recharging, I actually get more done in less hours.

[00:48:58] Chris: So I think, you know, a lot of this just is a, is a nice trade off. There are some things where, you know, now I'll actually stop working and, and chat with someone who wants to chat, um, which before I never would have done that. Right. I would have kind of like told them in, in various ways to like, leave me alone.

[00:49:12] Chris: I'm working, but there's this gout now. I'm like, okay, well, like, am I actually doing the right things by doing this? And I think the answer is yes. Um, but it is, you know, this process of like kind of self discovery is really interesting. 

[00:49:23] Zoe: There is insecurities. There is insecurities that go with it. Like, I was thinking about this the other day.

[00:49:29] Zoe: I said something to somebody and I said it in a way because I knew the answer. I knew the answer, but I wanted them to come to the conclusion themselves. And they took it as I'm incompetent and I didn't know what I was talking about. And it kind of made me annoyed. I'm not going to lie. Um, and, and it also I'm just fed to that little bit of insecurity I still have of, you know, I'm not as technical as he used to be.

[00:49:54] Zoe: You know, I'm not as hands on as I used to be. And if people are thinking I'm incompetent, well, you know, like, I'm like, Oh, that was not what he wanted. But then I'm like, no, no, this was the right decision to do it in that way. Because this person, it's on them to think that they think that of me. But they did learn, you know, they did, they did say what they said, I said something else and they did come to the conclusion I was hoping they would.

[00:50:18] Zoe: So it was a little bit of an insecurity, but the benefit is I think that person did actually learn something that they wouldn't have learned if I just told them the answer. 

[00:50:26] Chris: Right. 

[00:50:26] Zoe: So I think on your point about sometimes you're not as effective, learning takes time. You know, some things that I do. I do need to make the decision if it's worth waiting for, if it's worth teaching that person, or if I have to do it myself.

[00:50:39] Zoe: And when it comes to security, yes, there are times where you do need to make the call. You do need to actuate yourself, but then there's other times that they can learn and, you know, yeah, maybe we do need to take more time. Maybe we aren't going to be as effective in the short term, but the long term we are.

[00:50:55] Chris: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, one kind of pair of folks was, you know, Philip Koblenz came on and said, Everyone is lying about their confidence. If everyone is being honest, we're all imposters. We all have a plan until something happens, right? And it's just this idea that, you know, in a lot of ways, like confidence is faked until it becomes real.

[00:51:14] Chris: And I think that was echoed by By Becca Chambers, who was amazing. That was a really good episode too. And the way she defined imposter syndrome was as the courage to learn by doing, right? The courage to fake it until you make it. So I think that's, you know, I think that was something that kind of came through in this is that a lot of us feel this way and it's really about kind of what did John Wayne say?

[00:51:35] Chris: Courage isn't the lack of fear. It's being afraid and saddling up anyway. Um, and I think imposter syndrome is kind of similar to that. And then the other thing that I think is worth mentioning, I think another great episode was, was Michelin Murphy. 

[00:51:47] Zoe: Her episode was awesome. 

[00:51:49] Chris: I believe when we talked to her, was working in technology on her like third career, right?

[00:51:53] Chris: So she had like, been like a, like a seriously successful lawyer and then quit and did something else and then quit. And then now she was doing IT. 

[00:51:59] Zoe: And not half fast, to be clear, like these are highly successful, like she is bloody inspiring. I 

[00:52:09] Chris: And she said that her advice is the same advice our ski instructor gives her when she's looking down like the face of a double black diamond, which is do it, commit.

[00:52:16] Chris: You know, she said, if that's where your passion is and that's the way you decide you want to go, there's no halfway commit, follow your passion, which is I think awesome advice. 

[00:52:24] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it helps you grow. I know in security people always say, Oh, do your passion because you're not working.

[00:52:31] Zoe: That's bloody rubbish. You're still working. There's still going to be exhausting days, but if it's something you enjoy, it's easier to work. It's easier to learn for me anyway, because I stay motivated wanting to learn the topic. If it was something like compliance, I'd get bloody bored. You know, and yeah, I know it's important, but I'm bored, you know, whereas in security, I can continuously investigate and understand and, and learn more.

[00:52:56] Zoe: Sometimes I'm learning the exact same bloody technology with a different branded name. And it's stupid because they do things only slightly different and they drive me crazy. And then, and then I get annoyed and then I'm like, yeah, but I still enjoy it. You know, whereas if it was something I didn't enjoy, that would be very tedious.

[00:53:14] Chris: Yeah, definitely. Finding that passion or purpose in what you do is something that came up in the podcast quite a bit and something I definitely find that exactly the same, right, is everything's always going to be hard at some point, but like having a reason to do it, whether that's just pure joy or, you know, some greater purpose, some cause, you know, whatever that reason is, having that reason is what's going to get you to any kind of dark time or failure or mistake or challenge or whatever it might be.

[00:53:38] Chris: Yeah. So we should probably wrap it up there, I guess. I think again, just kind of putting a pin on it, you know, for me, the big themes that we saw through the last couple of years in these, you know, 97 interviews was getting comfortable, not knowing things, being willing to fail. And even though it's technology, it's all about people.

[00:54:01] Chris: Those were kind of the three big ones. And then, and then below that, this idea that everyone is feeling imposter syndrome, so, you know, fake it till you make it. That's okay. Don't wait for permission, go out and do the things you want to do. And if you do that following your purpose, following your passion, uh, you'll probably be successful.

[00:54:17] Chris: And if you're not having fun, find something else to do. 

[00:54:19] Zoe: Why bloody hell are you doing it? Yeah, and I think, I think one of the things maybe wasn't called out as often, but was kind of indirectly is celebrating your wins, having gratitude and acknowledging your successes because we're really good at acknowledging our failures, but we need to acknowledge our successes as well.

[00:54:39] Zoe: And that kind of goes to your motivation because if you're only saying, Oh, I failed here, I failed here, I failed here, eventually you're going to wear yourself down, you know, that's quite a negative. So try and look at the positives as well and, you know, acknowledge where you succeeded, celebrate those wins, and also build that community around you that's going to celebrate with you, you know.

[00:55:00] Zoe: And the last one that I think, I don't know if we've ever specifically mentioned, oh, we probably did, but knowing your boundaries. Because that's going to help with keeping your motivation up because careers are long, you know, we work a lot, large part of our life. Unless you're, you know, lucky and you get to retire young.

[00:55:19] Zoe: I don't know. Some people do. But we work a large portion of our life. You know, we're going to be here for a while. Um, there's a lot of technologists I look up to that have quite a bit of gray hair. Uh, you know, long beards. 

[00:55:31] Chris: Hey now. 

[00:55:32] Zoe: I'm a bit jealous. I'll never grow a beard, unfortunately, but if I did, I'd want one of those like really big bushy ones.

[00:55:40] Zoe: I love them anyway, but, um, you know, you're going to be doing that for a long time. So keep your motivation up by acknowledging where your boundaries are, what you need, what is going to motivate you and keep it that way. One of mine is I need a job that I am not micromanaged. And if I ever get a job that I micromanaged, I will not succeed in that job.

[00:55:59] Zoe: And they will not like me because I will not be succeeding. And so I know that is a boundary I cannot cross, you know, whereas. If I don't get on with somebody at work, well, you know, we don't have to be best friends, but we can still be effective. 

[00:56:12] Chris: Right. 

[00:56:12] Zoe: But if you're going to micromanage me, nothing you can do.

[00:56:15] Zoe: I will not succeed. So knowing that for yourself. 

[00:56:18] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It's good to know those lines. Yeah. 

[00:56:19] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:56:20] Chris: The other thing too is recognizing that they may change over time as well. 

[00:56:23] Zoe: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. 

[00:56:24] Chris: Right. Because that's something I've run into is like, you know, why isn't this working? Why isn't this working?

[00:56:28] Chris: This has always worked. Well, you know, we do change. 

[00:56:31] Zoe: I've gotten older, I can't work till two in the morning now. I can't pull the all nighter. 

[00:56:37] Chris: Okay. Well, awesome. I think we will leave it there. We've been talking for quite a while. Hopefully folks have enjoyed this. Uh, this kind of look back over, you know, some of Zoe and I's takeaways for the last two years.

[00:56:49] Chris: And, uh, so that's all the time we have for today. Thank you. Those of you who've listened to all 100 episodes. Thank you. Especially thank you a hundred times. And even if you've only heard one or two, or this is your only episode you've ever heard really thank you for, for tuning in and you know, I will say, even though we're not going to be putting out more episodes, at least for now, if you did find this episode insightful or interesting.

[00:57:10] Chris: Or even just entertaining, please consider one going back and checking out earlier episodes and to sharing the podcast with others. I think we've had some great conversations, some really amazing folks on as guests who provided some awesome insights, um, some great advice. So I really hope that folks continue to kind of tune back into these episodes and share them, maybe with your kids, maybe with your colleagues.

[00:57:35] Chris: I think there's a lot of really, really deep information here. Most of it doesn't come from me and Zoe. So if you hated this episode, still check out the other ones. There's some really smart people with some great advice there. Zoe, any final words before we Shut down the lights for the last time. 

[00:57:48] Zoe: I'm a bit sad.

[00:57:49] Zoe: Um, I think, I think, you know, you, you covered pretty much everything, but I think really is I want to hear your insights. You know, I want to hear your thoughts. So if you really were touched by an episode or you really resonated with something someone said and you want to write a blog post or start your own podcast, share it, share it.

[00:58:08] Zoe: And, you know, send it over to me. I'd love to hear it. If I talked absolute rubbish and you completely disagree with me, I'm interested in that as well. Don't know if I'll have the confidence to respond. I would like to hear because I think the most important thing is to hear the diverse opinions and thoughts and understanding how people view the world.

[00:58:30] Zoe: And it also is almost like feeding my internal knowledge of how to socialize with people. So you're just going to make me better like you. You know, I'm a AI bot, but I would be, I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions and sharing their thoughts and experiences. And just because we are, you know, officially ending this podcast doesn't mean that we're no longer sharing.

[00:58:54] Zoe: So, you know, do reach out on other platforms and, um, I look forward to chatting with people further on. 

[00:59:00] Chris: Awesome. Thanks Zoe. This has been a lot of fun. You've been a great partner. I have really enjoyed this project and doing it together. So, so thank you. I will miss hearing your voice, um, every week, almost every week.

[00:59:11] Zoe: Yeah. It's been awesome recording with you. I'm not gonna lie. I'm really sad now. 

[00:59:15] Chris: I'm gonna go give 

[00:59:17] Zoe: my, give my kids a cuddle. 

[00:59:19] Chris: Good deal. Um, well with that, we will not be back next week. 

[00:59:24] Zoe: Cheers. 

[00:59:25] Chris: So long and thanks for all the fish.